(00:00:00) Early life and primary school

Rohini talks about Mumbai, her birthplace, which her family would keep returning to as her grandparents lived there. Her grandfather was an electrical engineer in BEST (Brihanmumbai Electricity Supply and Transport). Her father, T S Balakrishnan, had a Master's in Physics from Allahabad and worked at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) from 1947-50 with CV Raman in the Physics department, decided it was not his calling, and wanted to work in geology and geophysics. He worked at the Geological Society of India in 1955. A year later the Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) was formed and he was one of the first 50 employees to join, and worked there for the rest of his life.

Her mother, a botanist, trained as a teacher but did not work. Her sister Meera Balakrishnan became a computer engineer.

The family moved to Gujarat when Rohini was a year old. They lived in the ONGC colony in Baroda – she remembers the presence of several animals in the vicinity and says she grew up playing outdoors and interacting "quite a bit" with animals. Her formative years were spent in Baroda and Bhavnagar, and the family later moved to Chennai for three years. She did Classes 2, 3 and 4 at Bain School.

(00:05:24) Moving to Iraq

Rohini's father was posted to Baghdad, and insisted that the family go with him. Balakrishan had just completed Class 4, and "broke school" for two years when the family lived in Baghdad – her father believed that education didn't come from school alone, and that his children would learn from living in another culture. Rohini says she spent much of those two years playing on the streets with other children. In the family's time there, they also did a couple of trips to her father's field site in the desert, where he was exploring for oil.

(00:11:45) Return to India

From Baghdad the family returned to Dehradun. Rohini had been out of school for two years, but her mother persuaded a school – Cambrian Hall – to admit her to Class 7 instead of Class 5. She had a tough six months trying to catch up, but at the end of it she received a progress prize from the school.

(00:16:10) Choosing biology

In Class 10, she leaned towards the arts – she took part in theatre and the choir. But she also "absolutely loved" Biology, and loved the school trips that she went on, including one to Corbett National Park at the age of 12. That's where she got her first exposure to being in the forest and going on a field trip. She also went on trips with her father studying rock formations in the mountains of Himachal Pradesh – the "most extreme" was one week before her Indian Certificate of Secondary Education (ICSE) board exams. She says both of them gave her "a huge love for the outdoors", and if she had not been a zoologist she would have been a paleontologist. But she always had a love for animals, and so she picked science subjects and biology for Class 11 and 12. She says having an "amazing" biology teacher in school, Veena Saxena, made the subject interesting and a natural choice.

(00:27:12) Finding a college

Rohini passed Class 12 – the ISC [Archivist's note: Indian School Certificate] board exams – in 1981. She says she got the highest marks in her school and in her area. There was also a crisis in the family – Rohini's grandmother and mother had serious medical problems – so she says her future wasn't foremost in her family's minds.

Rohini says her father didn't want her to study in Delhi because he felt it wasn't safe, and she felt that way about Dehradun too. She says one would often get molested on the street – she would walk or cycle to school and would often be followed by gangs of boys and sometimes assaulted. Rohini's father called up his brother in Bangalore and asked him to find her admission in a college in Bangalore as she wanted to do a BSc. He wasn't particular about where she gained admission, as doing a BSc or studying zoology and wanting to "roam around in the forests" perhaps didn't seem very important (as compared to maths or engineering, which her sister was studying).

Rohini moved to Bangalore to live with her uncle, who was an engineer and ran a factory in Bangalore, and his wife and children. She says that though her marks in ISC were around 70 percent, which was considered very high, in Karnataka it was possible to receive 90 percent in the equivalent state exams, so she was at the bottom of every list and found it hard to gain admission in colleges.

(00:32:53) Studying at Mount Carmel College

A friend of her uncle and aunt who was a teacher at Mount Carmel College suggested that they try to gain admission there, and through a quota for students from outside the state, she was able to gain admission to study Chemistry, Botany and Zoology.

She says ISC standards were higher than those in Karnataka and she already knew a lot of what was being taught in college. She says, "academically it was the worst period of my life", as it was very boring. For biology practicals they would have to do a lot of drawing – a practice that she says still continues, 40 years on.

For two years Rohini lived in her uncle and aunt's place in Malleshwaram, and when they moved to Mangalore, she moved into the Mount Carmel hostel. She says she hated living in the hostel, though being in Bangalore did mean the ability to move around in the city with a lesser degree of worry than in North India. She had grown up with a lot of freedom, which continued in her uncle's house as well, so moving to the hostel felt like a more drastic transition. She looked forward to finishing her degree and leaving as she didn't like the overly restrictive hostel rules and lack of personal freedom.

(00:00:00) Visit to Madurai Kamaraj University

Rohini says that from a very young age she wanted to study animals. After completing a bachelor's degree, the only option that seemed available was a master's in Zoology. Came to know of the work of MK Chandrashekaran, bat biologist at Madurai Kamaraj University, wanted to study animal behaviour under him. Says that Bangalore University released marks very late and she missed cut-off date for admissions at many universities, including at Madurai Kamaraj University.

(00:06:41) Doing a Masters

Rohini went to University of Pune's Zoology department, met its head Sohan Modak, a developmental and molecular biologist who had recently returned from Switzerland. Missed the deadline for admissions, but he got her admission to the master's course.

First year – studied invertebrate zoology, genetics and other courses that were standard at the time. Second year – had to choose a specialisation. There was no course on ecology evolution, ended up picking molecular and developmental biology.

That year (Archivist's Note: 1985) Biotechnology as a course was first introduced in India and hers was one of the first few universities to offer it – this brought in more young students from outside Pune, and Rohini made close friends among them.

(00:12:36) Modak as a mentor While studying molecular and developmental biology, Rohini says she learned how to do DNA extraction. Did her dissertation on chick embryology with Modak as her mentor. Describes Modak as a brilliant, unorthodox teacher with a scary style of mentoring and who could be sexist and verbally inappropriate – says, "In those days, that was the way things were".

Second year of second semester, contracted a bad case of hepatitis and had to go home. Ended up missing three months of class, thought she would lose the year, but decided to attempt writing the exams as she "really wanted to get out". Says she was burned out, stressed out, and didn't enjoy what she was studying. Says Modak made it possible for her to write the exams, even though she didn't have the required attendance, and she received a first class.

(00:16:22) Visit to IISc

Rohini wondered what to do next – a PhD wasn't really on her mind as she was still ill, but knew she wanted to go back to doing behaviour and ecology. She came to Bangalore to the Centre for Ecological Sciences (CES) at IISc, to attend a summer workshop conducted by her mentor Raghavendra Gadagkar.

Says her one saving grace during her final year of undergrad was the weekends, when she would climb over the wall of Mount Carmel College at 5.30 am when the nuns were at Mass, and walk to IISc. She would join Gadagkar, who had finished a PhD and had just started working at IISc's Centre for Theoretical Studies, on the IISc campus to go bird-watching. Says he introduced her to the things he worked on – insect and bird diversity, and wasp behaviour.

(00:22:39) Applying to TIFR

Rohini applied to CES, IISc and Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) on her father's urging. Says that though TIFR asked for a recommendation letter, she had had a falling out of sorts with Modak and didn't ask him for one. Was upset that she didn't get into CES, where Gadagkar, Madhav Gadgil and Father Saldana worked at the time, but attended the interview for TIFR. Says M M Johri and P K Maitra asked her why she didn't have a recommendation letter and asked her to arrange for one – to which she said she would not. Says she was quite rude in the interview, was sure she didn't want to go to TIFR, but she got offered admission.

Before that, while working on her Masters, she says she tried to see if she could do a PhD from the Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS), but she believes that they didn't encourage her to do so because she was a woman. Wildlife Institute of India (WII) was just starting at the time but didn't have actual programs – there was a gharial project in the Chambal Valley but her parents didn't want her to take it up as they felt it was unsafe.

The only door that seemed open was TIFR, and she says her father and Gadagkar encouraged her to join. She says the only labs she could have thought of working in were Obaid Siddiqui's and Veronica Rodrigues', because they were the only ones working on anything connected to behaviour.

(00:31:05) Working with Veronica Rodrigues

Joined Rodrigues' lab without much interest in genetics and without having met Rodrigues. Says she sparred with Rodrigues on "just about everything", because of a difference in personalities and because both were young and inexperienced. Describes Rodrigues as someone who worked very hard, was deeply passionate about science, ambitious, and expected the same from her students. Says she was also "a bit of a slave-driver", impatient, though very hands-on. Rohini says that when she became a mentor herself, she decided "I will never do this".

After two years they didn't have results – Rodrigues had used techniques to map the olfactory system in drosophila, and Rohini was trying to do brain mapping of the taste [gustatory system] coding using similar techniques that were "state-of-the-art" at the time but also "very iffy" as the two systems were organised in different ways. A thesis committee was instituted and Rohini says at the meeting they were "so horrid" to her. Says she was fed up, told herself she would quit her PhD, stopped going to the lab for a week.

According to Rohini, K VijayRaghavan had just joined TIFR, Rodrigues sent him to speak to her and convince her to continue. Says she decided to give it another try on one condition – no more thesis committees, she was going to formulate her own project and do it her way.

[00:38:55 - 00:39:12 – Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in]

(00:41:31) Reworking her thesis to focus on pleiotropic effects in drosophila

Says she started working on something slightly different from what others were doing, which VijayRaghavan mentioned years later in a talk as being ahead of its time – pleiotropic effects in Drosophila.

Says Siddiqi was her formal guide as Rodrigues was not yet registered as a guide, though they wrote the papers together.

The way Siddiqi and Rodrigues approached sensory processing of taste and smell was to use a chemical mutagen, hit a random molecule, and try to see if it causes a defect in smell or taste and try to figure out physiological implications. Rohini's argument was that in sensory processing, it was possible to look at mutations in molecules in other sensory systems which had not so far been shown to have an effect on smell or taste. Because there were 'building blocks' – components that are likely to be common and reused across different sensory systems and pathways – many other kinds of mutants could be involved in these pathways [related to smell and taste] as well.

She enjoyed the work and found it intellectually challenging, learnt several things on her own including neurobiology and Mendelian genetics. Says she typed her thesis on Jayant B Udgaonkar's computer, took and developed her own photographs, and submitted her PhD on time – in five years.

(00:54:57) Switching fields and looking for a postdoc position

Rohini says she was looking to move fields – no more chemosensory work – and two things really excited her, animal navigation and animal communication. Started to look for people who worked in these fields and wrote to them. Was taken up with Rüdiger Wehner's work on ant navigation. Got the chance to go to a workshop in Trieste at the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics (ICTP). Wehner paid for her to go from Italy to Switzerland, she gave a talk on genetics in Zurich, met Wehner, who she describes as someone who remains inspiring and encouraging. He didn't have the money for a position for her, they wrote a grant proposal together for a postdoc fellowship, but didn't get it. She visited a couple of labs in Germany as well. Spent the year after her PhD writing proposals but nothing worked out. Looked through ads in Nature and Science and saw an ad for a position in Gerry Pollack's [Archivist's Note: Gerald S Pollack] lab at McGill, Montreal to do neurobiology – electrophysiology. Acoustics in crickets, but on a neural basis. Says she wrote a letter saying her background was in genetics, the position was for an electrophysiologist, but her interest was in communication and behaviour. She got the position.

(01:07:08) Working with Gerry Pollack in Montreal

Says Pollack taught her how to mentor someone and be "really really nice" doing it. After the hierarchical structure at TIFR it was a different feeling. Had to adjust to living in a new country, cold weather, not everyone spoke English. "Felt very looked after" for the next three years, describes Pollack as a very affectionate and caring person.

Says Gerry was fine with her doing work that he wasn't doing or interested in – which was "quite unusual". She worked on behaviour, looked at courtship and courtship songs in crickets. She learned about acoustics, how to do behavioural experiments, animal communication. Not yet out in the field, but more in line with what she wanted to do.

When leaving Montreal she asked Pollack why he picked her for the position. Says he told her that he received over 60 applications, picked her because she had good recommendations and because of her letter – it was honest. Says he told her he didn't regret picking her, but wanted to tell her two things: one that she was a first-rate behaviourist and a third-rate electrophysiologist. He saw that she didn't have enough passion for the latter, and encouraged her to stick to behaviour. And second, he thought she wouldn't be happy in the academic world in North America.

(01:17:15) Meeting Dagmar von Helversen

When reading up on acoustics in insects, she saw papers by a woman named Dagmar von Helverson – "they were just something apart", clever and elegant but also hard. Says Pollack told her that Von Helversen was one of the finest neurorethologists in the entire field but didn't have a formal position – her husband, Otto was a professor at Erlangen, they had three children so she worked when she could, was productive but didn't get the recognition she should have. Rohini wanted to meet her, Pollack invited Von Helversen to McGill on a three-month fellowship and she accepted. Rohini says meeting, talking to, arguing with her, watching her work was "amazing". Describes her as attentive to detail, polite and humane. Says they hit it off as people and as scientists. Von Helversen encouraged her to work with her in Germany.

Rohini began applying in different places for a second postdoc position hoping to go to Germany. Says she applied to 30-40 labs, was rejected by all of them, her visa was about to run out. Decided to go home to her parents in Bombay and figure out what to do next, booked her ticket home and emailed Von Helversen to let her know.

Says that ten days before she was to leave she got a reply from Von Helversen – "and honestly that email changed my life". It was one sentence, saying that Von Helversen was sorry nothing had worked out but since Rohini was flying home through Germany, if she decided to get off that plane in Germany, she wouldn't let her starve.

(01:27:12) Working in Germany with the Von Helversens

Rohini got off the plane in Frankfurt with two suitcases, took a train to Nuremberg, von Helversen picked her up at the station. Von Helversen found her a small room to stay in temporarily. Says there was no talk of positions or money. Otto's was a large lab with 20-25 students, all German, most didn't speak English, but – "The whole lab got together to keep me afloat." Otto didn't have a formal position for her, paid the equivalent of a daily wage. Rohini was fine with it. Says the two years in Germany were the best of her life. "If I really learned where to do science well, it was with Otto and Dagmar." Says every last point would be dissected and argued, but without rancour. "That's something I carry with me, and that's something I hope I pass on."

(00:00:27) His name, parents, schooling in Bombay and siblings Joshi talks about his name stemming from the naming convention in Maharashtra, and shares those of his parents as well. He talks about being born in Belgaum in 1951, and shifting to Bombay. He talks about initially being in a Gujarati medium kindergarten school in Malad, but then switching to a Marathi medium school in Dadar, and then again to another school in the higher classes. He shares that his father was initially a professor of Sanskrit and his mother was his father's student. His father also pursued studies in law and later started his practice in Bombay. His father continued teaching- a variety of subjects- both formally and informally- and his mother taught English in colleges. He is keen to share that a famous Hindustani classical singer was his father's student when she was in school, but is unable to recollect her name. He talks about his siblings, sharing that his brother and him are especially close to each other. [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, it was called 'King George High school', but the index term uses the current authority record name, 'Raja Shivaji Vidyalaya'] [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, it was called the 'Primary School of the Indian Education Society', but the index term uses the current authority record name 'Patkar Guruji Vidyalaya'] [Archivist's note: interviewee shares that his mother's name was earlier Sudha Govind Kelkar and then changed to Pradnya Vasudeo Joshi] [Archivist's note: interviewee shares that his sister's name was earlier Karuna Joshi and then changed to Preeti Shenwai after marriage]

(00:08:07) Childhood homes and recollections of school life Sharing dimensions of his family's living spaces, Joshi reveals never feeling like they were not enough, calling it the "Bombay style of living". He talks about thoroughly enjoying his time in school (apart from homework during vacations) and the languages of instruction- Marathi and then English. He found the teaching to be really good. He explains the system wherein classes were based on the ranks of the students. He says he felt that learning multiplication tables was unnecessary and that knowing how to multiply was enough. Much to the amusement of his classmates, once when called upon to recite the multiplication table of 17, he proceeded to recite whatever he felt like. He also shares learning early on that one's handwriting was not something worth putting effort into and his dislike for some other activities in school as well. When it came to things that he pursued or did , Joshi talks about what his parents expressed a preference for. He had an interest in reading from the 1st standard, reading whatever came to hand. He mentions a friend – Ashok Gadgil – as having a big influence on him and goes on to share more details about him. He was also interested in playing cricket and listening to film songs. He shares that he never felt anything amiss in terms of financial support while growing up, and also that it was not the case that he had any great requirements . He shares that his mother is still alive and his father is not. He again alludes to teachers in school being good and says they were extraordinarily dedicated.

(00:20:25) Opportunities to travel, academic choices and engagement with religion Every vacation, Joshi would go to Pune to visit his aunt and cousin, both of whom were major academic influences on him – especially his cousin. He says that it was not the case that his parents were particularly interested in science and they left him to his own devices in terms of making academic choices. They both read greatly and his father in particular, he says, was sort of interested in everything. Joshi shares that at home, they did not perform any rituals or celebrate any religious functions as such. He attributes being in Bombay as a reason for their being no mention of caste. [Archivist's note: Shakuntala Kelkar is a person the interviewee mentions in the interview as an aunt (mother's sister), who was a professor of botany; name obtained from interviewee post-interview]

(00:23:31) Engagement with social and political issues Joshi's mother had been involved with the freedom struggle and was a part of the female wing of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. He shares that while his father did not have any engagement with any political party as such, he supported friends and colleagues who had political inclinations.

(00:26:24) Undergraduate degree, academic performance and choices Joshi mentions the people who influenced him to go to Elphinstone College for his undergraduate degree, as well as a professor – RN Panditrao – who played a major role in physics becoming an important subject in his life. He names the various institutes Ashok Gadgil has studied at and has been associated with. He speaks about academic choices he made such as choosing science and mathematics over other options at hand. He mentions family members and another teacher who was a major influence on him in school – Pradhan [Archivist's note: full name not known]. Having to take the local train to go to Elphinstone College was a break from his routine until that point. He also mentions his reasons for choosing this college. He mentions clearing the entrance examination for the India Institute of Technology (IIT), but giving up the opportunity to study there out of being unsure of which branch to choose. Another factor, he says, was thinking that it would lead him to a corporate life – something he was not interested in. It was a drive to pursue something with research or having a project component, that led him to give the National Level Science Talent Search Examination. He stood 51st in the public examination in the 11th standard and shares further about his academic performance in school in terms of his rank in the class. It was on his parents' insistence that he continued with English medium education when the switch was made in the school. Although he began to read books by English authors in the years that followed, he shares that he was not comfortable speaking in English till college. Apart from the decision to switch to English medium education, his parents left academic choices to him.

(00:38:14) Engagement with science and mathematics

He says he had almost no "outside" interaction with science. However, one talk he attended that did stand out to him, in terms of the presentation, was by the Nobel laureate Hannes Alfvén. After joining college, he recollects the chemistry and physics professors as being very enthusiastic. He shares an anecdote about a talk he gave on ionisation [interviewee correction post interview: talk he gave on 'methods of titration'], but being uncomfortable about asking his doubts as he prepared for it. He continues to talk about the subjects he studied, where he studied them and the teachers who left an impact on him. For his BSc degree, Physics was his principal subject and mathematics was the subsidiary one. Having been poor in chemistry practicals, he was attracted by the idea of not having to pursue the subject further. He shares an anecdote about professors trying to convince Ashok Gadgil about which subject to choose. He cites the National Level Science Talent Search Examination and as a result of clearing that, the summer schools, as having a major influence on him. It led him to interact with a group of people completely interested in science, for the first time. He shares the locations of the various month-long summer schools and that they focussed on physics. Thanks to them, he was exposed to topics outside of the regular syllabus.

(00:48:26) Interest in social issues During his school days, Joshi mentions being interested in social issues. In keeping with this interest, he states being exposed to the Yuvak Kranti Dal in Pune, attending a camp of Baba Amte's and reading Marmik, the Shiv Sena's mouthpiece.

(00:50:54) National Level Science Talent Search Examination Joshi talks about clearing the National Level Science Talent Search Examination and interview and the fellowships and grants he received as a result. He refers to the summer schools he attended as being most impactful.

(00:51:56) Years at Elphinstone College and getting into IIT Powai for a Master's degree He remembers taking the local train to and from Elphinstone College and spending time with fellow students in the lunch break. Though he laments there being no research project or similar motivation, he speaks about professors, such as Galgali [Archivist's note: full name not known] and VT Chiplunkar, who made a great impact on him. He speaks about getting into IIT for his Master's degree in Physics. He credits an undergraduate professor as helping him in a practical examination and awarding him a first class. Along with this, he speaks about friends who were in IIT who played a role in influencing his decision, along with the exposure to hostel life that he had had thanks to the summer schools. He shares his reasons for choosing IIT Powai over IIT Kanpur and wanting to stay in the country till he completed his PhD degree. [Archivist's note: the interviewee refers to the institute as 'IIT Powai', and this is retained in the summary. However, the index term uses the authority record name, 'IIT Bombay'.]

(00:57:55) Staying in the hostel and other memories of IIT Powai He recollects not being very good at the subjects taught, but nonetheless being elected to the Indian Academy of Sciences' fellowship. He recounts Rohini Godbole as being one of his classmates. He shares about standing for the post of General Secretary of the hostel and getting elected with support from fellow Maharashtrians. However, he had to resign, being unable to cope with the demands of the post and his studies. He speaks about feeling enthusiastic about a last semester project on laser Raman spectroscopy. Joshi also shares about his interest in walking and hiking and since his college days, in lasers and fuel cells. He was interested in academic activities outside of the syllabus. More than the teachers at IIT, he says his classmates had a great influence on him. He says he landed up with the subjects he studied thanks to getting the last rank, and they became relevant for his getting admission into the Indian Institute of Science. He talks about the authors he read after being exposed to their books at IIT and the previous summer schools.

(01:05:12) Travel Not really having an interest in any sightseeing, Joshi shares that the only travelling he did outside Bombay was to the locations of the summer schools he attended.

(00:00:30) Follow-up from last session and what his siblings have pursued NV Joshi shares the name of the singer he was unable to recollect in the last session who was a student of his father's. In addition to cricket and reading which he mentioned last time, he shares that in his school days he was also into physical exercising and table tennis. He goes on to talk about what his siblings pursued academically and professionally, including his brother's time at TERI. He remarks that his brother's command over the English language is better than his. [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, TERI stood for 'Tata Energy Research Institute', but the index term uses the authority record name 'The Energy and Resources Institute'] [Archivist's note: interviewee's brother's name: Yateendra Joshi; not referred to by his name in the interview; name obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: interviewee's sister's name: Preeti Shenwai; not referred to by her name in the interview; previously known as Karuna Joshi; names obtained from previous interview session]

(00:06:38) Time at IIT Bombay, Summer Schools as part of National Level Science Talent Search Examination and decision to come to IISc for PhD Lab work did not fascinate Joshi, nor was he good at it. He says he always felt he would do something theory based and not experiment based. He talks about his relationship with studies over the years and being unable to understand the more theoretical oriented topics while in IIT. He details the sequence of events and decisions that lead to his pursuing a PhD degree at IISc, mentioning places he specifically did not consider and those that did not work out as well when he reached out to them for recruitment. He initially applied to the Physics Department at IISc. He shares that he stayed with a friend in the hostel when he had to give the exam and interview.

(00:17:03) Decision to join MBU and knowledge of science and scientists Joshi shares that he did not do well in the admission process for the Physics Department and then learnt that he could apply to MBU too. He shares that the interview went well. Students in the morning session had shared with him the questions that were being asked and he was able to look up the answer in the library beforehand. He speaks about being totally unaware about science when he was interviewed for a fellowship while pursuing his pre-university course. The summer schools were his first exposure to the world outside.

(00:21:01) IISc interview panel, GN Ramachandran, VSR Rao and MBU Joshi mentions the Professors on the interview panels when applying to the Physics Department and MBU. He mentions VSR Rao as going on to be his guide. He also shares a bit about GN Ramachandran, the founder of MBU, and how he would recruit students for MBU and encourage them to meet all faculty members so they could decide whose work appealed to them. It was through this process that VSR Rao's theoretical work appealed to him. Joshi shares that six months later he got a letter saying he could join the Physics Department (having previously been on the waitlist), but he chose to continue in MBU. He speaks about the initial days of the MBU when he joined- it being a very small department with few rooms, professors and students. He talks about classmates from his Masters days who were also at MBU. Joshi says that it was the way in which VSR Rao described problems pertaining to the shapes that different units take (e.g. starch and cellulose) and classical potential functions that seemed quite interesting to him. There was also some amount of elimination in the decision to join him, when it came to experiments or work that other professors were involved with which he was not interested in or the fact that they did not choose him.

(00:29:17) Decision to work on carbohydrate conformations, PhD coursework and what his research involved Joshi says he decided to work on six membered sugar rings when their preferred conformations were not well known. VSR Rao worked on carbohydrate conformations and being unfamiliar with the subject, doing what he suggested was an automatic choice in the first year. He talks about the course work that was part of the first year and what he was comfortable with and what he found difficult. His PhD research focussed on precise shapes molecules would take, their preferred conformation and whether biological activity seen is similar to it. He looked at six membered sugar rings for five and six carbon sugars. Subsequently, he worked on looking at equivalents of penicillin such as ampicillin to see how it matches with or differs from penicillin. Joshi feels that his work was least demanding on time and energy. Given its computational nature, programmes had to be written. With only one computer and times much different from today, it would take up to a day or more to get one's results, depending on the queue and whether it was a production run. Solving a specific problem involved less work once the results came in and were tabulated and plotted. When using the IBM 360 computer at CISL (the only one for IISc at the time) was not enough, Joshi had to go for some months to IIT Madras to use the IBM 370 computer which was bigger. He describes the process he would follow after writing the programme, from go to the punching machine where different statements had to be punched in, to checking printed outputs in the department's pigeon hole. [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, it was called the 'Central Instrumentation and Service Laboratory (CISL), IISc', but the index term uses the authority record name 'Department of Instrumentation and Applied Physics, IISc']

(00:40:41) Surgery for retinal detachment and joining CTS as a programmer In 1976, when he went to Chennai for computational work, he had retinal detachment for which he required a surgery. He then went to Bombay for post operative care. He shares that halfway through his pursuing his PhD, he joined CTS as a programmer towards the end of 1979. He speaks about Raghavendra Gadagkar and becoming his roommate during the second year. Gadagkar would have discussions with Madhav Gadgil who was in CTS, and Joshi would join these. Joshi also had discussions with Sulochana Gadgil, he says. His work involved writing programmes, which he greatly enjoyed. When the position for a mathematical programmer at CTS fell vacant, he applied for it and was selected.

(00:45:40) Life at IISc and interest in computer programmes He speaks about staying on campus and staying with Raghavendra Gadagkar. He mentions which hostel blocks he stayed in. He describes his life in IISc as being easy and great. He speaks about the monthly fellowship stipend of ₹400/- making "a lot of difference". Watching movies twice or thrice a week in the ample free time was a matter of routine, along with visiting the gymkhana and the library. His work was such that he did not require large grants for anything, unlike those dealing with experiments. It was thanks to compulsory coursework that he first became interested in computer programmes. He enjoyed writing his own programmes over using ones written by others. He mentions the names of the journals he used to read and describes his movie watching routine.

(00:51:42) Differences over time in Bangalore and IISc and social consciousness of students at IISc Joshi says he is unable to comment on differences in Bombay over time, given that he has not been there for many years but goes on to share some he has noticed with respect to Bangalore. He mentions two of his favourite restaurants from his PhD days. In reference to changes in the IISc campus over time, Joshi says though the number of people and buildings and traffic has increased, the greenery has remained unchanged. He talks about the food in the mess being particularly good when he was studying there. During the time of the Emergency, Joshi recalls IISc as being completely isolated from any of its effects. He also recalls a time when students were unhappy about a satellite launch because a huge amount of the few computers' time was allotted to ISRO.

(00:57:51) Parents' feelings about his choices and his own about the position at CTS Joshi shares that his parents were of the opinion that as long as he enjoyed his work, that was the best that could happen. Had it been the case that he had not got admission for the PhD degree, he says he would have looked into another source for a stable income. He was not keen to pursue a post-doctoral fellowship abroad, the norm, and was satisfied with the salary of his position at CTS. He also shared that no one treated him as an assistant and they were trying to upgrade his position to that of a lecturer. He feels lucky that no one pushed him towards pursuing medicine or engineering, giving him complete freedom to decide what to pursue. He credits his parents' jobs as the reason for there being no financial pressure. [Archivist's note: interviewee's mother's name: Pradnya Vasudeo Joshi; not referred to by her name in the interview; previously known as Sudha Govind Kelkar; names obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: interviewee's father's name: Vasudeo Kashinath Joshi; not referred to by his name in the interview; name obtained from previous interview session]

(01:03:01) PhD work and writing papers Joshi refers to his PhD work on the shapes different sugars would take as being "straightforward mainstream research", unlike some of his peers at the time who were focussing on "top of the line problems" such as an alternate structure of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). He describes VSR Rao as being the pioneer of the drug discovery programme, stating that however he had not been given credit for it. Joshi goes on to share that he worked on drug binding capabilities of cephalosporin and ampicillin. Many of his peers, he says, went on to join the drug discovery programme in various parts of the United States. He talks about the mild ways in which his supervisor would put forth his suggestions to him. He details how a particular calculation that he wanted Joshi to include in the first paper he wrote on his own ended up being the reason the referee gave for the acceptance of the paper. He says his supervisor was one of the nicest people and that work that Joshi did with him is cited more than work Joshi has done on his own. Speaking further about writing, Joshi shares that some work from his PhD never ended up getting published after he got engaged with work at CTS. He mentions recently finding out that R Virudachalam had put his name as first author on a paper he may or may not have contributed to. He shares that he did not enjoy writing as much as doing the work itself- arriving at the results and drawing diagrams. He talks about publishing papers not being as difficult back then as it is now, and also not meaning as much then in comparison to now.

(01:10:40) Not keeping up with his field of PhD research later on, his best work according to him and time at CTS He talks about not keeping track of his field of PhD research after getting his degree, citing his difficulty of being able to visualise certain things and a comment made by P Balaram that was perhaps directed at him. Joshi regards the work he did on his own to do with sex ratios and the evolution of sex based on selfish DNA while at CTS as his best work, while sharing that although it is some other work of his that is more cited. Joshi feels in hindsight, he could have done better with regard to things like interacting more with people and using facilities available. At CTS, he realised, that with little effort on his part, he could write programmes for people which helped them a great deal. This gave him a lot of joy. He also got to interact with people who had "big ideas" and says that was "nice to see".

(01:14:24) Professors at MBU He speaks with fondness about the teachers at MBU and recollects how they were very helpful and used to interact with students as though they were their colleagues. He shares that they also had varied interests beyond science. He narrates an incident about how once when students were onlooking, a guide found a student sleeping at a table in the summertime and just turned the fan on above him and left. He feels this went to show how good the guides there were.

(00:00:20) Structure and process of PhD and Joshi's supervisor Joshi talks about his time pursuing a PhD degree at the MBU at IISc and what it entailed, highlighting the absence of present-day structured arrangements like seminars and regular meetings. He details the defence and examination process as well. He describes his interactions with his PhD supervisor, what his inputs were and speaks about his gentle and friendly nature and commitment towards his students.

(00:07:47) Examinations In the examination that followed the coursework, it was generally known the kind of questions that would be asked. Joshi goes on to share about the comprehensive examination- the examiners and questions asked- and the informal groups to which presentations were given.

(00:12:04) Roommates and life at IISc campus He credits Raghavendra Gadagkar, his roommate at one point, as being the "greatest influence" on him. Joshi also shares that along with most others who pursued a PhD in molecular biophysics, he too had a physics background and was unfamiliar with biology. He speaks of another roommate, recollecting that they did not take things as seriously as they should have. He mentions going on long walks outside the campus. Joshi talks about sports that were popular on campus and mentions that there was a literary society. Though subsequently it was not the case, perhaps because of an inability to handle multiple things simultaneously, with time on his hands in the first year, Joshi was involved with the Nu Biophysical Society and the Ganesh mandal. Later, as work took up more of his time, he frequently interacted with a smaller group of people.

(00:18:47) Joining the Centre for Theoretical Studies (CTS), encountering ecology for the first time and visits back to Bombay Joshi also joined Gadagkar's discussions with Madhav Gadgil, and as a result, learnt about the work being done at CTS. The work really appealed to him. Joshi shares details about all the factors that played a role in his applying for the position of a mathematical programmer at CTS when an opening came up. Some of these were interactions with V Nanjundiah, people at CTS finding his inputs to be very valuable and the biological relevance of work there in contrast to what he was doing for his PhD degree. He goes on to talk about his first encounter with behaviour and ecology, before coming back to detailing the process whereby he joined CTS as a mathematical programmer. He describes his interactions with others in the department, advantages he had while applying for the position and motivations that led him to wanting to take up the job. He talks about the frequency of his visits back to Bombay while pursuing his PhD and says that it subsequently came down.

(00:30:08) Location of places he stayed and worked at within the IISc Campus; founding years of CTS Joshi mentions the blocks he stayed in while on campus and the physical location of certain places within the IISc campus, such as CTS. He goes on to share a bit about the history of the founding of CTS in 1972 and the professors associated with it in the early days.

(00:34:20) Joshi's role and work when he joined CTS Joshi was expected to assist visitors to CTS who were PhD students and professors. He interacted with people who came to Madhav Gadgil and needed assistance with quantitative analysis. He learnt statistical analysis and was able to help Sulochana Gadgil with analysing rainfall patterns using principal component analysis (PCA)- something that helped in his work with Gadagkar later on.

(00:39:26) Daily routine; learning various statistical techniques

Sharing that he was "treated as a collaborator by everybody", Joshi recalls what his daily routine would entail, while also giving examples of topics he would engage on with others. For Joshi, learning different statistical techniques involved reading about them, having taken no statistics course as such post the first year of pre-university course (PUC). Consulting Anil Gore (a statistics professor collaborating with Madhav Gadgil), going through standard subroutines on the IBM computer and lists of programmes and descriptions left by his predecessor- R Sundar- were other ways by which he picked up required techniques.

(00:43:44) Learning statistics and explaining it to others He continues to share details about how he picked up statistics. Nanjundiah offered a course in statistics, but Joshi found it too advanced. Having himself failed in mathematics while pursuing his MSc degree, he was rather sensitive to people's inability to understand mathematics. He often had to explain techniques to others who would use them and this led him to put them across in a manner such that someone with no mathematics background could understand.

(00:45:47) Publications, work on sex ratios and population genetics and PCA He discusses publications with others as well as ones he has of his own. He speaks in some detail about how he got around to working on sex ratios and population genetics. He delves into his preference for the simplest formulation of a problem. He also speaks about work he was involved in with others to do with Drosophila. Joshi credits his background of working on the conformation of sugar molecules and the Ramachandran plot as what made him comfortable subsequently with using PCA.

(00:54:45) Lack of interest in the subject matter and collaborations and interactions with other researchers Although he says that he could do his work just fine despite not being familiar with the subject matter, he acknowledges that it would have been helpful had he been more familiar with it. He states that he simply was not interested. Even though he could have visited any bird sanctuary, he was not attracted by the idea. Joshi speaks about his collaboration with Lalitha Vijayan and shares an anecdote about Sálim Ali and her to do with referring to drongos as "Birds A and B". He emphasises that to him, the most important thing was to focus on what the question in the research trying to ask. He refers to researchers he interacted and collaborated with, such as NLNS Prasad.

(01:00:34) Authorship on papers Regarding authorship on papers, Joshi divulges that he did not feel comfortable lending his name to a paper if he did not feel it had an intellectual component that could be attributed to him. He narrates some discussions he had with co-authors about this, Sulochana Gadgil amongst others.

(01:05:48) Computers used, promotion to Scientific Officer and not having to deal with any transitions as such Joshi talks about the computers he used while at CTS and CES. He shares about being promoted to a Scientific Officer and how the post compared to that of a Lecturer. Joshi feels lucky that he did not feel any significant transition as such when going from MBU to CTS and later on from CTS to CES. [Archivist's note: interviewee talks about the 'Central Instrumentation and Service Laboratory (CISL), IISc', but the index term uses the authority record name 'Department of Instrumentation and Applied Physics, IISc']

(00:00:32) Interest in programming, programming languages and location of CTSJoshi talks about how his interest in programming developed after joining for his PhD degree and taking a course taught by C Ramakrishnan. He mentions the programming languages that were being used at the time. He also says where CTS was located initially before it moved to being opposite the Mathematics Department.

(00:04:35) Formation of CES Joshi sheds light on the circumstances around which CES was formed, such as the feeling that separate centres for conservation and atmospheric science would enable these subjects to grow more and also allow for the involvement of students. He describes how the proposal for CES was accepted and those who were involved. There was no "transition" as such for Joshi from CTS to CES, but there was a formal interview. He speaks about those associated with CES in the early days and the work they were involved with.

(00:15:31) Joining the Centre for Ecological Sciences (CES) and reasons for not taking on PhD students Joshi talks about the circumstances that arose which led to his formally joining CES in 1987. These included BK Mishra leaving his post, Madhav Gadgil keen for him to join CES and Joshi himself thinking that joining CES would be better for him than staying on at CTS in terms of the nature of work and interaction with others. Joshi also shares that the post was reserved for a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe candidate, but when no such candidate applied, Joshi was able to stay on. He speaks a bit about the other candidate who applied and those who were on the interview panel. He says his reasons for not taking on a PhD student all these years are having to take responsibility for how they fared as well as their appointment later on, and not having worked independently on a topic that would be regarded as a "PhD topic" by the rest of the world.

(00:23:22) Working style preferences, people at CES in the initial years and libraries He goes on to speak about how and why it was that over the years his work has been mostly collaborative and about his preference to do work himself rather than explain it to others. Joshi mentions others who were at CES when he joined-Raman Sukumar, S. Narendra Prasad, Raghavendra Gadagkar, and NH Ravindranath and the first students- RJ Ranjit Daniels, Arun Venkatraman and K. Chandrashekara. He speaks a bit about some of their backgrounds and work they were involved with. He also speaks about the libraries at CTS and CES. [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, it was called the 'Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF)', but the index term uses the current authority record name 'Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change (MoEFCC)']

(00:30:46) How Ranjit Daniels joined CES and Joshi's three trips abroad Joshi narrates an interaction between Daniels and Joshi's brother that played a role in Daniels joining CES. Joshi shares about the three times he went abroad. Twice it was to attend conferences- once on mathematical modelling at University of California, Berkeley and another time on social insects in Munich, Germany. The third time he went to Barro Colorado Island in Panama. He did not have any interest in stepping out of IISc, much less the country, stating that whatever he wanted was available on the IISc campus. [Archivist's note: David DW Daniels is Ranjit Daniels' father whom the interviewee mentions in the interview; name obtained from interviewee post interview]

(00:38:49) Interaction with others, accommodation and food and conferences attended in India Joshi's frequency of interaction with others came down once he moved out of the hostel into his own accommodation in 1985. Joshi talks about the different hostels he stayed at and the categories of houses he stayed in over the years in IISc. He also speaks about how he managed his different meals, calling it a "very comfortable life". He cites his preference for reading over listening and talking with others as the reason for not attending conferences as such, even those in India. Thanks to the visitor programmes that both CTS and CES had, he was able to meet people at IISc itself.

(00:50:13) Conferences/workshops on modern biology at Mahabaleshwar Joshi attributes attending conferences/workshops on modern biology at Mahabaleshwar as the reason for his developing an interest in ecology and conservation. He speaks about others who attended them as well. He goes on to talk about conferences being held in five-star hotels if international scientists are attending on one hand, and "field workers" not caring about the kind of accommodation or transportation on the other hand.

(00:56:57) Field trips, programming and the computer centre and options for food Joshi speaks about having a good experience when he went to visit Barro Colorado Island and also mentions another field trip to the Nilgiris that he had been a part of. Because of a lack of pressure to perform at CTS, Joshi feels he got carried away with working on programming tasks which indirectly helped the work, but did not require a scientist as such. He says that although the computer centre is active till today and there are possible reasons why others would want to go there, he personally does not have a need to go there. He recalls it being poorly managed and unfriendly until his fellow student, N Balakrishnan, set things up in a user-friendly manner. He discusses the various places on campus where food and rations were available. [Archivist's note: N Pattabiraman is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as the colleague/fellow student doing some work on the alternate structure of DNA; name obtained from interviewee post interview]

(01:05:21) Reflections inside IISc of what was happening outside Speaking about the reflections on campus with respect to goings-on outside, Joshi recollects there being no reactions as such with respect to the assassination of Indira Gandhi in 1984. He shares that as far as he was aware, the student council would hold collection drives sporadically- when any major disaster struck- and if some others were aware of what was going on outside, it was because they were in touch with people there. As an example, he cites the Biswases being aware of things when they were engaged in teaching municipal school students.

(01:09:20) Some formalities, salary and teaching Probations, evaluations and promotions at IISc are what Joshi discusses next. He shares details about salary, being a teaching assistant while being a programmer and courses he was involved with. For instance, he taught a course on mathematical modelling biology, later renamed as population theory.

(01:15:00) Resolving the challenges of the computer centre and rules blindly followed on campus Joshi was part of the sending of an anonymous letter to the Chairmen of all departments regarding the manner in which everyone was affected by the way the computer centre was working. This was taken seriously and things were smoothed out. He talks about rules being followed blindly at times, even when the formality made no sense. For example, when it came to the various courses that were compulsory for different students. He also cites episodes of a reimbursement for his eye surgery and a fine for a pending mess bill in this regard.

(01:22:45) Agitations and protests on campus; family members associated with academics Enhancement of the fellowship amount and the pension [interviewee addition post interview: 'pension' refers to the small amount of financial support that IISc provided to the PhD students who had completed six years and were yet to submit the thesis and were thus ineligible for being awarded the regular fellowship of IISc] was an agitation that Joshi was involved with. He also speaks about some protests on campus in the early 1980s when Prince Charles visited. These were to do with the fact that the Director of IISc, Satish Dhawan, who would hardly spend time in the campus was suddenly spending time there and the students were unhappy about the manner in which Indians going to Britain were being treated those days. Joshi lists multiple family members and the teaching and related academic activities that they were involved with. He agrees to speak more about his time at CES and the collaborations he was involved with in the next session. [Archivist's note: RN Apte is the interviewee's mother's mother's father whom he mentions in the interview as being one of the founders of the Indian Mathematical Association; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: Madhusudan Gokhale is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as his father's sister's husband who was the principal of a teachers' training college; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: Vibhavari Gokhale is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as his father's sister who was a teacher in a school; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: Purushottam K Kelkar is the cousin the interviewee mentions in the interview as founder director of IIT Kanpur; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: interviewee's father, not referred to by his name in the interview; name obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: interviewee's father's name: Vasudeo Kashinath Joshi; not referred to by his name in the interview; name obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: interviewee's brother's name: Yateendra Joshi; not referred to by his name in the interview; name obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: Govind Hari Kelkar is the interviewee's mother's father who is mentioned in the interview as the founder principal of the law college; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: Gajanan Kashinath Joshi is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as the uncle in a bank who started his career as a teacher in a school; name obtained from interviewee post interview] [Archivist's note: Shakuntala Kelkar is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as his mother's sister who was a professor of botany; name obtained from interviewee post-interview] [Archivist's note: Shridhar Kelkar is the cousin the interviewee mentions in the interview as having a PhD degree in education; name obtained from interviewee post-interview] [Archivist's note: interviewee's mother's name: Pradnya Vasudeo Joshi; not referred to by her name in the interview; previously known as Sudha Govind Kelkar; names obtained from previous interview session] [Archivist's note: IG Madanshetty is the person the interviewee mentions in the interview as his aunt's husband, who was a professor of chemistry in Hubli; name obtained from interviewee post-interview]

(00:00:55) Last three years and early collaboration with faculty at CTS and CES Joshi shares that the three years since the last session, which coincided with the coronavirus pandemic, were most comfortable for him and he had no problems with being isolated. He speaks about how his collaboration with Raghavendra Gadagkar came about in the 1970s and how he was introduced to the Centre for Theoretical Studies (CTS) at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc). He talks about the work he did with Sulochana Gadgil involving principal component analysis (PCA) and rainfall patterns. He was also involved with Gadagkar's work on the social behaviour of wasps and shares about the processes and computers used in those days. Collaboration with Sulochana Gadgil on crop modelling work continued at the Centre for Ecological Sciences (CES).

(00:07:05) Interest in the evolution of sex and the transition from CTS to CES For Joshi, it was discussions and work on dosage compensation and sex determination, along with Gadagkar, Hombe Gowda Sharat Chandra and Vidyanand Nanjundiah which sowed the seeds of interest in the evolution of sex. He adds that Sharat Chandra was most appreciative of his work. He talks about there just being a change in his formal association with CTS to CES and no other transition as such. A grant from the Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF) [Archivist's note: at the time spoken about by the interviewee, it was called the 'Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF)', and this is retained in the summary, but the index term uses the current authority record name 'Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change (MoEFCC)'] was awarded to CES, and [interviewee addition post interview: being a faculty in CES,] a part of it was allotted to Joshi as well. With the availability of a personal computer, he was able to work independently given the nature of his work.

(00:11:20) Informal interactions for data analysis work and courses taught Joshi talks about being involved with the analyses of Raman Sukumar and RJ Ranjit Daniels' work and the absence of a formal set up at any stage; those needing assistance with data analysis "automatically" came to him, even those from outside CTS and CES. Joshi shares about courses he was involved with teaching while at the Molecular Biophysics Unit (MBU), CTS and CES pertaining to FORTRAN programming, computer programming, population theory and statistics. He also mentions some professors in other departments who offered statistics courses at different stages of time. While he knows people would come to him for help in analysis their data, he is unsure if there were others in other departments who also played a role similar to him.

(00:19:38) Starting work with Madhav Gadgil, RJ Ranjit Daniels and others and involvement with others' work He speaks about interactions with students of Madhav Gadgil- S Narendra Prasad, Sukumar and Daniels, and working on the computational part related to theoretical models of evolutionary biology with Madhav Gadgil, Sulochana Gadgil and Nanjundiah. Joshi narrates how it was upon learning about Daniels' keenness for birds, due to an interaction between his brother and Daniels in Nagercoil, that he was able to connect him with Madhav Gadgil. Madhav Gadgil, Daniels and Joshi would discuss the analysis based on Daniels' field work in Sirsi. Despite being invited by HS Suresh to visit the 50 ha plot, Joshi shares that he has never been to it. He names some people with whom after he had some initial interactions were able to continue subsequently with their work without inputs from his side. For example, Gadagkar and Milind Kolatkar. [Archivist's note: David DW Daniels is Ranjit Daniels' father whom the interviewee mentions in the interview; name obtained from interviewee post interview]

(00:25:28) Peopling of India project Joshi sheds light on the Peopling of India project, that he too was a part of, as well as others who were involved with it. He highlights the background of Kumar Suresh Singh, Director General of the Anthropological Survey of India, who played a key role in the project, and how he felt the post he held as Collector during a famine contributed to his understanding of certain communities. Joshi goes on to speak more about the data collected by the project and how using the matrix of communities and various traits upon which they had been surveyed, he was able to say which traits were similar to each other, which communities were similar, where there any groups one could speak of, etc. Apparently, the others involved with the project were extremely impressed by the points of view that Joshi brought to the table as it was something new for them. He talks about the roles played by Suresh Patil and him in the analysis of the project. He also speaks about a paper published in 1996 based on the findings and of findings such as economically well-off people having fewer children than those not that economically well off, irrespective of their religion.

(00:37:29) Current Science- association with it, changes over time and a few anecdotes Joshi mentions there being a special section of Current Science for the Peopling of India project, on the advice of P Balaram. In fact, it was due to Joshi's interaction with Balaram that his involvement with Current Science began in the mid-1990s. Later, this led to him being inducted into the editorial board, a position he holds till date, despite making requests to SK Satheesh to relieve him from the role. He addresses how his role has changed over time and describes the process of reviewing submitted manuscripts as an associate editor. He mentions interacting extensively with MS Venugopal and Chandrika Ramesh. He observes that once online submission started, the number of submissions increased, but does not feel there was any other change as such or at least those he can comment on, based on the manuscripts that came his way. However, he adds that email submissions and manuscript management facilities have made things easier and speedier for authors in terms of uploading submissions and getting reviews. Completely enjoying his role at Current Science, Joshi feels he got a better understanding of the scientific situation in India and in particular cites an anecdote regarding authorship of papers submitted by PhD students. He also shares stories regarding two other papers that were submitted, one that had much of it copied from Wikipedia and another by a senior nuclear scientist on Pokhran. He uses the description of the latter to point out that Balaram and him would have opposing views on most issues. Even though he had an interest in statistics, unless Joshi himself was the reviewer of a certain paper, he would leave looking at statistics in it to the assigned reviewers.

(00:50:29) Collaborations and interactions with other scientists Joshi shares how it was that he first met and interacted with KN Ganeshaiah and R Uma Shaanker respectively, and that he found their work to be "most exciting" and so kept up interaction with them. Interaction with Kamaljit Singh Bawa came about when he was at CES and Joshi went through a paper of his [interviewee addition post interview: co-authored with Uma Shaanker and Ganeshaiah] on plant parent-offspring conflict that he found to be impressive and interesting. K Chandrashekara became a good friend via attending a weekly discussion group that he too was a part of. He regrets not being able to continue collaborations with Ganeshaiah and Uma Shaanker. Amongst PhD students with whom he collaborated, he mentions TR Shankar Raman and Cheryl D Nath and says he would discuss Kartik Shanker's work with him.

(00:54:57) Chapters for National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) textbook Joshi says he was minimally involved with writing chapters on evolution in an NCERT textbook in the 1980s and names those who played a greater role and with whom he collaborated- Sharat Chandra, Nanjundiah, Gadagkar, Bharti Sarkar and Holenarasipur Yoganarasimham Mohan Ram. He specifically mentions finding interacting with Mohan Ram from the University of Delhi to be interesting.

(00:57:19) Credit on papers and collaboration with TV Ramachandra Joshi mentions spending a lot of time convincing others not to include his name on papers, feeling that he did not have an intellectual involvement and an acknowledgement should suffice. He cites collaborations with TV Ramachandra, V Sitaramam and Ganeshaiah and Uma Shaanker in this regard. It was in order to fulfil an administrative requirement that Joshi agreed to give his name as a guide for Ramachandra's PhD degree and says that Ramachandra's help to him was infinitely more than the help Joshi was able to offer him- a few discussions for Ramachandra's thesis. Joshi speaks about offering encouragement to Ramachandra's PhD students, HS Sudhira and Balasubramanian Karthick.

(01:01:24) Not taking on any PhD students, involvement in admission process and views on programmes and other recent developments at IISc He addresses the fact that his stance on not taking on any PhD students was not an issue with the IISc administration. He explains that the system was such that the CES faculty collectively had to take on a set quota of students, and so his not taking on any student would only help another faculty member who wanted to take on more students. While he was at times involved in the statistics part of interviewing students for admission to CES, Joshi had made it clear in his own interview for the lecturer's post that he was not interested in taking on students. He shares that Rohini Balakrishnan put in the most effort when it came to admission of students to CES. He states being against the integrated PhD and undergraduate programmes and not knowing the details about recent developments such as the setting up of the medical college and hospital, but agreeing with Balaram that IISc would be in a position to contribute to clinical research in terms of collaborating, if there is such an opportunity.

(01:06:22) Other roles within and outside IISc Joshi talks about being a part of a committee interviewing nursery and garden staff giving him experience in knowing how other things functioned in IISC. Being the Chair of the National Centre for Science Information (NCSI) for a brief period in the 2000s, also, was a great experience for him and he mentions it being a pleasure interacting with Francis Jayakanth and others. He shares some details regarding NCSI, the administrative role he played and others involved with it, such as TB Rajashekar, AG Menon and KT Anuradha. Around the turn of the millennium, Joshi filled in for Gadagkar as Chairman of CES, although he was not keen to do so. During this time, he also served ex-officio on the Sálim Ali Centre for Ornithology and Natural History (SACON) governing council, attending monitoring committee meetings. He shares how he knew the Vijayans from before. On a couple of occasions, Joshi was involved with the review of Masters theses at the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) and faculty interviews and the working of the centre for mathematical modelling at Poona University [Archivist's note: Joshi refers to the institute as 'Poona University', and this is retained in the summary. However, the index term uses the authority record name, 'Savitribai Phule Pune University'].

(01:13:00) Lack of interest in travelling, recent published work and other unpublished work

He shares that he has never really been interested in travelling, and so never pursued opportunities that came his way that would enable this. Moreover, with the coming of personal computers and the internet, in addition to feeling like existing collaborations he had were enough, he further did not see any reason for travelling. In terms of recently published work, Joshi speaks about collaborations with Balaram and his students, wherein he helped with statistical analysis. Joshi cites having to provide a write up for the annual reports as a trigger to come up on his own with some ideas for work that could be pursued at a later stage, stating, however, that this was not followed up with.

(01:17:16) Use of statistics in research over time Citing changes he has observed on the use of statistics in research over time, Joshi shares the availability of statistical packages and a shift in focus to Bayesian analysis and random forest algorithms. What has not changed, Joshi says, is the use of statistics in a mechanical or mandatory way, at times not even making sense in respect to the questions posed.

(01:20:29) Other interests and regrets He talks of being interested in cricket, old film songs and reading. Joshi talks about there being two things he feels very happy about, in terms of being able to figure them out given his exposure to different things, but at the same time regrets not having followed up on. One is to do with checking whether associations in mixed feeding flocks are significant or not. The second is to do with the species area curve and realising that the power law equation for it is inappropriate and one can prove it.

(01:26:59) Life in IISc over time Joshi feels he has been extraordinarily lucky in being where he has. In this regard, he refers to the opportunities he has had to interact with people from various places, for example, even a Nobel laureate, and also appreciation he received from seniors, such as Sharat Chandra. He also alludes to having had a background in various subjects and Current Science giving him great exposure to many things. He shares a quote by his neighbour from D quarters, JE Diwakar, about IISC having many things to make one both miserable as well as extremely happy. According to him, a personal decrease in interactions with others, more buildings and people and bigger hostels are changes in campus life over time, while greenery and ambience has been the same.

(00:00:00) Early Life and Education V. Santharam was born in Cochin but moved to Chennai at the age of nine, where he spent much of his childhood. He became interested in birds through a relative of his who used to frequently take him bird watching in Chennai. Santharam remembered visiting the Vedanthangal Bird Sanctuary in the 1970s. He continued these bird watching expeditions when he visited Kerala too, he said.

He had never seriously considered pursuing Bird Studies as a career. It was only in the 1970s when he went to college, that he wanted to opt for the Sciences. However, since he did not have a science background, he could not opt for any of his college's science courses and instead ended up taking Commerce, he said. It was his parents wish that he completed a B.Com from Madras University and get a job at a bank, he said. In his spare time, he enjoyed reading books, watching movies, and bird watching, he mentioned.

(00:04:25) The Madras Naturalist Society He then talked about his experience as a member of the Madras Naturalist Society, which started in 1978 in Chennai. He soon became a regular and active member of the Society and helped edit the Society's journal, Blackbuck which started in 1985. Joining this Society was like a 'dream come true,' for him he said. It gave him the opportunity to meet and interact with people in the field of Natural History.

(0:06:00) Early Days Bird Watching During his spare time in college, Santharam remembered going to the Adyar estuary which was home to many species of birds. It was here that he did most of his early bird watching. He talked about some of the challenges of bird watching during the 1970s. First, there were very few organizations at that time that were studying birds in India, he said. Cameras, binoculars and field guides were not easily accessible at that time either, he said. People mostly took field notes and made sketches of the birds they saw, he explained. It took bird watchers months sometimes, to identify birds, he said. Salim Ali's The Book of Indian Birds was very popular among bird watchers at that time, Santharam said.

He then moved on to talk about his contributions to Zafar Futehally's Newsletter for Birdwatchers, which invited write-ups from even the most amateur of bird watchers. Santharam published papers in this periodical. His first paper was published when he was only 17 years old. He wrote extensively about his observations at the Adyar estuary, he said.

(00:11:20) Interactions The Madras Naturalist Society collaborated closely with the British Council, Santharam said. British Council hosted talks and film festivals on their premises, on behalf of the Madras Naturalist Society, Santharam said. These talks attracted many eminent natural historians and environmentalists. For example, Santharam recalled meeting ornithologist Salim Ali and wildlife photographer Madhaviah Krishnan when they attended a talk organized by the Madras Naturalist Society. The subject matters in these talks were very varied. Topics for these talks ranged from birds to mangroves to insects, Santharam said. These talks helped him sustain his interest in natural history, he added.

(00:15:17) In Chennai Since the Adyar estuary was quite close to his house, Santharam remembered visiting the place for most of his birding walks. Not only did he try and study bird biology, but he was also able to study bird behaviour and their nesting habits, he said. He was interested in exploring common species of birds since these were often not documented enough.

He also talked about the rapid urban development that was happening in and around Chennai during the 1970s and 1980s. These developments were greatly altering the city's natural landscape and consequently many bird species' natural habitat, Santharam explained. It was during this time that Santharam, along with some other naturalists and the Forest Department, began taking a keen interest in conservation efforts to help preserve Chennai natural environment in the face of rapid urbanization and industrialization in the city.

(00:18:57) First Jobs Santharam found his career options limited, having taken commerce at the undergraduate level. He joined a chartered accountancy firm as an intern first, but not finding this job particularly interesting, he left his position here to take up a job at the sales department of a book distributor.

He had always been interested in books, he said. This distributor often imported books from abroad. They had some of the latest books on natural history, conservation and bird studies, said Santharam. He began taking books from the distributors back home to add to his personal library collection, he said. Among the books he took back home was Madhaviah Krishnan's book on wildlife photography in India and Salim Ali and S. Dillon Ripley's Handbook of the Birds of India and Pakistan. Working at this bookstore kept his interest in birds alive, he said.

(00:24:00) Master's Degree In Pondicherry University In 1987, Santharam joined Pondicherry University's Department of Ecology (later renamed as the Salim Ali School of Ecology) for a Master's in Ecology. Santharam recalled that Salim Ali passed away on the day Santharam went to write Pondicherry University's entrance exam. He got through both the entrance test and the interview and joined the University in August of 1987.

His program had a very small group of students, he recalled. He maintained a good rapport with his teachers, he said. These two years were critical in his life since through this program Santharam was able to interact with many scientists in the field of ecology and officially get into the wildlife circle. At the end of his two years Master's program, in 1989, Santharam stood first in his course. After completing his Master's in Ecology, Santharam wished to work for a little while before pursuing a doctorate degree, he said.

(00:28:04) Working With IISc and the Bombay Natural History Society He learnt of an opening at IISc Bangalore's Centre for Ecological Sciences. The Centre was doing work on the conservation of Asiatic elephants. Santharam then moved to Bangalore to take up this job. Bangalore was a nice city, then, he remembered. He continued his birding walks in Bangalore, he said. However, his work at IISc was primarily a desk job where he was tasked with managing databases. He did not find this position too exciting so left Bangalore to join the Bombay Natural History Society's (BNHS) bird migration project at Sriharikota.

At Sriharikota he was able to participate in bird ringing activities, he said. He enjoyed being able to hold the birds in his hands, weigh, measure and ring them, he said. He worked with BNHS for four months, before deciding to pursue a PhD.

(00:32:02) Pursuing a Doctorate Degree Santharam left his project with the BNHS and returned to Pondicherry University in 1990, to pursue his PhD under Priya Davidar. He decided to study woodpeckers for his doctorate research, he said. Woodpeckers require old growth forests, he explained. His research could then have significant implications for wildlife conservation, he added.

Santharam did his fieldwork at the Peechi forest in Kerala. This was a relatively understudied area, he said. However, the forest here had many species of woodpeckers. Plus, the Kerala Forest Research Institute was near the Peechi sanctuary, where Santharam was doing his fieldwork, so he could approach the institute for help with his research, he said. Later, when it came to doing data analysis for his fieldwork, Santharam decided to move to the Salim Ali Centre for Ornithology and Natural History (SACON) and get some help doing this analysis from Ajith Kumar, who was working at SACON at the time.

(00:40:25) At SACON and BNHS SACON during this time was looking to hire research associates, Santharam said. SACON was doing a project looking at biodiversity in non-protected forest areas of Kerala. Santharam arrived at Coimbatore in 1994, participated in this project for a while but soon decided to quit SACON and pursue his independent research on the white bellied woodpeckers of the Western Ghats. After completing his independent study, Santharam worked with BNHS on a short project related to wetlands near Kanchipuram.

(00:50:25) Arriving At Rishi Valley In 1998, S. Rangaswamy invited Santharam to come head Rishi Valley's Institute of Bird Studies. The two had interreacted before in the 1980s when Santharam had come to Rishi Valley to help Rangaswamy carry out a survey of the birds at the Rishi Valley School. Rangaswamy was very invested in nature, Santharam recalled. Rangaswamy used to take his students out frequently for bird watching walks, he added. Rangaswamy had begun a home studies course in ornithology in 1997, said Santharam. The course was designed to introduce birds to lay persons. It was a six month long correspondence course, said Santharam.

Upon receiving an offer from Rishi Valley, Santharam decided to move his family from Chennai to Rishi Valley in 1998. He felt a permanent position at Rishi Valley offered him more job security and also opened up good education opportunities for his two children. Apart from being the Director of the Institute of Bird Studies and Natural History, Santharam also taught at the Rishi Valley School. He also travelled to various Krishnamurthy schools across the country to introduce bird studies to children and staff at these schools, he said.

(00:59:24) Ravi Sankaran When asked to talk about his relationship with ornithologist Ravi Sankaran, Santharam said that Sankaran was a very 'eccentric,' and 'unconventional,' man. Rangaswamy had known Sankaran when Sankaran attended Rishi Valley as a student, Santharam said. Santharam recalled an interesting anecdote that S. Rangaswamy had told him about Ravi Sankaran. In all of Rishi Valley's history, Ravi Sankaran was the only person to have gotten bitten by a snake at the school, said Santharam.

Santharam had met Ravi Sankaran personally when the two worked at SACON, too. The two often went bird watching together. Sankaran would often forward Santharam papers for him to look through, too, he said. It was when Santharam was at Rishi Valley that he learnt of Sankaran's untimely passing. Soon after Sankaran's death, his wife had joined the Rishi Valley School as a teacher, but both Sankaran's wife and daughter passed away in a tragic accident soon after, Santharam said.

(01:05:55) Bird Watching At Rishi Valley When asked to comment on the bird watching walks that Santharam conducted at Rishi Valley, Santharam said that his predecessor, S. Rangaswamy, had already begun a culture of bird watching at the school. Santharam merely continued this tradition. Birding walks occurred every Sunday, between 6:30-8:30a.m, he said. He would select a different location each time. His bird watching group comprised of about ten to fifteen students, a couple of faculty members and sometimes, visitors and parents, too, he said.

Apart from these weekly birding walks, Santharam also conducted annual bird races at Rishi Valley, every July, to commemorate Rishi Valley being declared a bird preserve, he said. He would invite wildlife experts to Rishi Valley to participate in these bird races. In these bird races, groups would set out to explore the wilderness in and around the Rishi Valley School to locate as many bird species as they could within one day. Santharam also talked about organizing nature camps for his students at Rishi Valley.

When asked whether he and his students used any special equipment during their bird watching sessions, Santharam said binoculars were essential for bird watching. The school also had books and field guides the students could use as references. Other equipment, such as spotting scopes, were donated to the school, also, he said.

When asked whether technology like various mobile applications (apps), have enabled a better bird watching experience for birders, Santharam said at Rishi Valley there were strict policies against students using electronic devices. As such, his students did not really benefit much from birding apps like E-bird, he said. He himself did use E-birds, he said, but overall these birding apps didn't have too much of an impact on his students' bird watching experience at Rishi Valley, Santharam said.

(01:18:03) Environmental Changes on Rishi Valley's Campus When asked what kind of environmental changes he experienced as a bird watcher at the Rishi Valley campus over the years, Santharam said that when he first joined the school, in 1998, there was a quite a lot of rainfall in that area. As a consequence of this, there was a lot of green vegetation on campus and all the water bodies on campus were filled. This attracted a lot of wetland birds before, he explained. However Rishi Valley was located in a relatively dry area of Andhra Pradesh. There was very little rain post 2000. The number of water birds have dwindled significantly in recent years. Nevertheless, there was a drive to increase green vegetation on campus, he said. Rishi Valley had begun its afforestation program earlier in the 1980s which attracted a lot of newer birds that were previously not seen in the area, he added.

(01:26:14) Santharam's Work At Rishi Valley When asked to talk about his contributions to Rishi Valley's Home Studies Course in Ornithology, Santharam said that he continues to update the course, regularly. The course was launched in 1997 and covered all aspects of ornithology, including bird physiology, ecology and even bird photography, he said. The course also covered contemporary concerns like global warming and climate change, he added. The course also drew from Jiddu Krishnamurthy's philosophy on the interactions between humans and nature, he said.

When asked to comment on pedagogy for this course, Santharam said that since the Home Studies in Ornithology course was a correspondence course, there wasn't too much lecture-oriented teaching here. Having said that, Santharam was trying to make the course more interactive, he said. Apart from his duties as a Director of the Institute of Bird Studies, Santharam also enjoyed participating in Indian classical music and photography activities at Rishi Valley, he said.

(01:37:13) Conservation Efforts Santharam himself has conducted sessions with NGOs that try to encourage bird watching and nature conservation among the public. Furthermore, Santharam has worked closely with the Kerala Forest Department in its bird surveys, too, he said.

When asked to elaborate on government schemes that sought to promote nature conservation, Santharam mentioned the Gujarat government's initiative to have a nature education program in many of its schools in the State. Even Kerala was slowly opening up its forest areas to students to encourage interaction between these students and conservation experts, he said. However, such initiatives needed to be uniformly carried out, across India, Santharam added. The government should work not just to promote eco-tourism, but encourage conservation among the lay public, too, he said.

When asked what was the best way to do large scale biodiversity conservation, Santharam said that there needed to be a drive to maintain India's natural landscape, as far as possible. Given the 2020 nationwide lockdown due to the coronavirus pandemic, people have become less consumerist, he said. People need to cut down on their consumption, further, he said. That is one way of conserving natural resources. He himself makes it a point to switch off all the lights and fans in his classroom when he teaches environmental education at Rishi Valley, he said.

(01:47:36) Typical Day At The Rishi Valley School When asked to describe a typical day at Rishi Valley, Santharam said that students were required to do a little bit of Physical Education in the mornings, before attending a morning assembly and finally commencing classes. Students were encouraged to be in nature as much as possible. For example, often Biology classes would be held out in the open, in nearby fields and not in the school labs or classrooms, he said. The school also organized excursions for its students quite frequently, Santharam said.

(01:55: 43) India's Ecological Landscape When asked to comment on the significance of the Western Ghats in India's larger ecological landscape, Santharam said that the Western Ghats were a biodiversity hotspot. It was very rich in different species of plants, birds and animals. However, development in the area threatened the region's biodiversity, he said. Hence, there was a need to conserve this area. Similarly, Rishi Valley was located on the Eastern Ghats and despite it not receiving as much attention as the Western Ghats, this area too was rich in biodiversity and was hence worth conserving, Santharam maintained.

(01:59:35) The Indira Gandhi Administration Taking a step back and resuming conversation about his childhood, when asked what it was like to grow up in Chennai during the Indira Gandhi administration, Santharam said that Indira Gandhi did a lot for nature conservation. People were not very aware of conservation efforts in the 1970s. Santharam talked about his participation in the 1970s Silent Valley Movement, that got a lot of media and public attention. He talked about Indira Gandhi's instrumental role in stopping the building of a dam at Silent Valley, which would have adversely affected the area's ecological landscape, he said. Today, more people are aware of the importance of nature conservation than they were in the 1970s, Santharam felt.

(00:00:00) Early Life Born in Bombay on April 28th, 1951, Norma Alvares was the second of four children. Her mother was a teacher and ran a kindergarten school, while her father worked in clerical sales in a firm in Bombay. Alvares said she came from a middle-class family. In school, Alvares said that she was a very diligent worker and always stood 'top of the class.' She said even today her younger son teased her about her rank in school, calling Alvares 'selfish,' for not giving up her top spot to anyone else in her batch. Alvares was also part of many co-curricular activities. She sang and was also part of a pageant set up by a Christian group. Alvares recalled the time she played the role of baby Jesus in a play set up by this group. She talked about how she was selected for the role because she looked 'Jewish.' She also recounted how she was asked to cut her hair for this role, but refused. Alvares mentioned this anecdote specifically to emphasize how headstrong she was in her views, even as a child. Alvares also recalled how she was the only Christian girl in her Bharatanatyam dance group. She finished school in 1967. She was the head girl of her school in her final year. (00:05:25) College After school, Alvares undertook her undergraduate education from the Sofia College, Bombay. Alvares recalled how college was an 'eye-opener,' for her. She said it brought her a new sense of freedom that she had not previously experienced in high-school. Alvares added that while at school, she lived a very sheltered life. In college, however, she joined the Catholic Students' Union and was exposed to a whole different world. She said she visited many villages and tribal areas while part of this students' union. She also became very passionate about social issues and it was then that she began thinking about what to do with the kind of education she was receiving. She wanted to help alleviate poverty and address the various social issues she encountered through her work with the students' union. Alvares noted how she had always wanted to become a teacher. At the undergraduate level, she studied History and Politics. At the Master's level, she continued with the Arts, and specialized in Constitutional History. Alvares said that while in college, she did some part time teaching in another school in Mumbai. She was also given the opportunity to teach at Sofia College after completing her undergraduate studies there. However, Alvares was still committed to social work. She said she didn't care too much at this point in time about making money. So, she, along with her husband, decided to move out into India's rural areas and do some social work there. She met her future husband, Claude Alvares, while she was in college. (00:12:17) Initial Years in Goa Alvares then moved on to talk about her and her husband's decision to move to Goa. In their initial years in Goa, Norma Alvares was also working on her doctorate research, she said. She was exploring 16th century Goa and its socio-economic landscape. She said she had to learn Portuguese to better read the historical material she was studying. Alvares recalled how at the time they moved to Goa, Goa was not the tourist destination it is today. Back then, it was a very underdeveloped part of the country, she said. Norma Alvares and her team began the Happy Learners School, to educate underprivileged children in Goa, but that project ran into financial difficulties, she said. Their second project was starting a farm in Goa's interior regions. They bought some land and began working on a dairy farm. The farm had no phone access, no electricity and was very removed from the main city. Alvares contrasted her time at this lonely farm to the busy city of Mumbai, where she had spent much of her life till then. However, Alvares saw herself as an optimist. She always tried to make the best out of any situation, she said. She learnt to grow rice, identify diseases in plants and even learnt veterinary medicine while at the farm, she said. Alvares said that two years after her marriage to Claude Alvares (she got married on October 15th, 1977) Alvares gave birth to her first son, on this farm in Goa. She said she did not want to go back to Mumbai and since she had helped deliver calves on the farm, Alvares thought she could deliver her baby there, too. She said that because she was quite an active woman, the delivery and the labour went well. She also delivered her second child on the farm in 1982, but after that the farm ran into financial difficulties when their cattle contracted hoof and mouth disease. They then turned over their responsibilities on the farm to the workers there and moved closer to Panjim. Alvares and her husband sold their farm in 1985 and with the money they got, started the Goa Foundation (an organization that sought to protect Goa's ecological landscape- interviewer notes) in 1986. This was the same year that the Environment Protection Act was drafted, said Alavares. Then, remembering she hadn't talked much about her legal career yet, she moved on to talk about her interest in law. (00:21: 12) Law Education On being asked when she began her formal training in law, Alavares said that it was only after coming to Goa that she became interested in the subject. While working on the farm, Alvares could see that many villagers were often 'cheated out of things.' It was then that she decided to do law, in order to be able to represent these people. She registered with a college in Panjim, didn't attend a single class and yet did well enough in the exams to obtain a law degree, she said. (00:26: 39) Work in Goa Alvares continued talking about her work in Goa. She talked about setting up the Third World Book Store Society. This Society ran the 'Other India Book Store.' The Society helped collect and disseminate within India, books that were produced in other "third world" countries. Alvares claimed that Indian people's ideas were very much dominated by Western modes of thinking and even the kinds of literature that Indians had hitherto produced were not free of this Western influence. The Third World Book Store Society was hence a platform for writers from "third world" countries to share their work, produced in their specific socio-political contexts. The Goa Foundation, on the other hand, worked to preserve Goa's environment. Whereas Indira Gandhi during her Prime Ministership had banned development along Goa's coastlines, Rajiv Gandhi lifted this ban in 1987 and opened Goa up to tourism, explained Alvares. Alvares continued and said that many hotels that came up in the State during that time blatantly violated environmental laws. Alvares talked about filing her first Public Interest Litigation through the Goa Foundation with regards to this. She worked on the case under the guidance of the lawyer, Indira Jaising. Alvares thought that her teaching experience in Mumbai helped her in her legal career, too, in the way she had to explain and argue her cases with judges in court.

(00:00:00) Inside the Courtroom When asked to describe a typical courtroom, Alvares talked about her experience working in the Bombay High Court. She described the courtroom as being 'large,' with a separate space where the public could sit in during hearings. There was a table and a lectern for the lawyers. The judges always sat on a raised platform, she added. The court master would handle the files and paper work. Usually lawyers were supposed to address the judge as 'My Lord,' but feeling that this was too archaic, Alvares said that she had always addressed judges as 'Sirs,' and 'Madams.' She talked about her experience working under senior lawyer Indira Jaising. When she finally did cases on her own, she never had any assistants helping her. She had to learn to stand her ground in court. Alvares talked about the importance of having a loud voice in court. Often, Alvares appeared in court to fight a case against very senior council members. It was often very intimidating for her to fight against government representatives and senior council members. She recalled the time she appeared in court with lawyer Ram Jethmalani and how she had to fight to get her views heard over her fellow colleague. (00:11:43) Fish Curry and Rice When asked to talk about The Other India Book Store's publication, Fish Curry and Rice, Alvares pointed out how the book was named after Goa's staple diet- fish curry and rice. This publication covered many of the environmental issues that the Goa Foundation took up in court. The publication had chapters about Goa's tourism industry, the building of the Konkan railways, sand mining activities in the State and the depletion of fishes in the coastal areas. Fish Curry and Rice was read not just by a general audience, but an academic one, too, Alvares said. Largely, the book was very critical of the Goa government, she added. (00:19:05) Legal Frameworks When asked whether the Goa Foundation worked in the area of wildlife conservation, Alvares said that the Foundation's work was mostly informed by the Environment Protection Act of 1986 and the Forest Conservation Act of 1980. The Goa Foundation tried to ensure that development projects did not encroach on Goa's forest lands. (00:24:34) Animal Rights Activism When asked to talk about her animal rights activism, Alvares said that environmentalist and politician Maneka Gandhi was the first person to have advised her to begin an animal welfare organization. Alvares set up the People for Animals in 1996. Alvares talked about this organization's role in banning bull-fighting in Goa. Alvares explained that bull fighting was largely done by Catholic communities in the State. Similarly, the shooting of stray dogs was also a common practise amongst many Goanese. The People for Animals organization helped lobby against this practise, too. Alvares talked about setting up shelters and initiating birth control programs to manage Goa's stray animal population. Alvares also talked about her role as an amicus curiae to the Bombay High Court in a case pertaining to the banning of fishing activities during monsoons in India's coastal areas. (00:37:33) Women in Court When asked about her own experiences of being a female lawyer, Alvares said that the court was heavily male dominated and often women only appeared as junior lawyers to senior councilmen. She also felt that women in court were too afraid to speak up in front of their senior colleagues and that most women lawyers didn't pursue their law careers post marriage. Alavares said that by and large, she never faced any discrimination in court. However, she recounted an incident when a judge very blatantly mocked her during a hearing. She found the judge's remarks very disrespectful. Alvares said that she took court matters very seriously and did not engage in such humour or mockery when she was at a professional workplace. (00:46:15) Receiving Awards for Her Work When asked to talk about receiving the Padma Shri, Alvares said that she had never heard of this award before and was very surprised to hear she was going to receive it. Alvares explained that it was Maneka Gandhi who had put forward Alvares's name for this award. She felt this award was not just recognizing her work, but was also recognizing the work that environmentalists and activists were doing across India. This award was presented to Alvares in 2002 by a Bharatiya Janata Party led government. Alvares mentioned that even though the BJP had been criticized for its role in the 2002 Gujarat riots, she decided to accept this award because it honoured activists who were fighting for change, fighting the system and were in many ways challenging the government. When she travelled to Delhi to receive this award, she remembered being particularly impressed by the government's hospitality towards her and her family. (00:53:36) Religious Views When asked to comment on her religious views, Alvares pointed out that she had always been a practising Catholic. However, she was not ritualistic at all. She said she has immense respect for other religions, although having grown up in a Christian household, she related to the figures of Jesus and Mother Mary, more than she did with Gods in the Hindu pantheon for instance. She did go to church, but only to meet people, she said. (00:57:18) Teaching Finally, when asked if she continued her teaching career, given that she had mentioned before about wanting to be a teacher, Alvares said that she had done a fair bit of teaching, although she never went back to University. She taught courses at the National Law School in Bangalore. She even taught at the Forest Research Institute in Dehradun in the 1990s and 2000s. At that time, she was one of very few environmental lawyers in the country because environment conservation as a field had not developed as yet, she said. Alvares also took a few civil services classes in Pune.

(00:00:25) Bombay – the foundational years Renee begins by talking about growing up in Bombay, and how she thinks it is the best city in the world. Going to Canossa Convent was foundational – there were children from all kinds of backgrounds and many with special needs, esp. Down's syndrome. Testing for it wasn't common practice then. She talks about her father being a renowned cancer surgeon and mentions that she has just finished a biography of him. She talks about her mother, who had a B.Sc. in Botany and a great love for plants. Her mother's garden won an award from the National Society of the Friends of Trees. After school, Renee went to St Xavier's College. She notes that there was a judicious balance of art, culture and scholarship at the college, and learning was fun. She remembers Professor Jangoo Mistry as an influential figure, and the Creativity Club he started. She talks about being allowed to skip an exam for a trip to Bharatpur, something that might not be possible in a college today. She also mentions that Zakir Husain was an alumnus, and that going to St Xavier's has been a family tradition as her parents and siblings too graduated from there. She also remembers Prof Gandhi, an exceptional teacher who taught co-ordinate geometry, and actively encouraged students to think, uncommon in today's schools and colleges. She still has her notes from his class. She remembers Jayant Udgaonkar was in the same class as her. [Archivist's note: First name of Professor Gandhi not provided]

(00:22:23) Bombay Natural History Society and how it paved her career Renee joined the BNHS when she was in college. She talks about how this opened up the natural world to her in a serious way. They had weekly trips to Borivali National Park (now Sanjay Gandhi National Park) where they participated in bird counts, leopard censuses, learnt how to make herbaria and even a bit of taxidermy. They also had full access to the Blatter Herbarium (BLAT) in St Xavier's. She also spent many evenings helping Humayun Abdulali, who was revising his bird collection catalogues at that time. He was known for his temper and most people were terrified of him, but she wasn't. She remembers working with him on the Crested Serpent Eagle (Spilornis cheela) collection and on the Hill Myna (Gracula reliogiosa) collection. He was looking for sub-species. She recalls arguing with him about the best way to measure the lappets of the Hill Mynas. This was a time before Image J and other software, and she remembers how precious the Vernier callipers were as tool. She also interacted very closely with Salim Ali and spent many days in Kihim, where his family had a week end home. He asked her to write a set of articles in the newspapers about the natural world. The first thing she wrote about was "Colours in Nature", in the Times of India. She still has newspaper cuttings of the articles she wrote in those days. Renee recalls that partridge sandwiches were the favourite of both, and how they would always carry some on their trips. She remarks at how the times have changed now. She also mentions field trips to Point Calimere with the BNHS. The importance of natural history was inculcated in her at this time, and by now, she had decided to pursue ecology as a career.

(00:33:45) M.Sc. and applying for a PhD abroad After her B.Sc., she studied for her M. Sc.in Animal Physiology at the Royal Institute of Science, now the Institute of Science. She was not terribly stimulated by the teaching here, and remembers having to commute to different colleges across Bombay for lectures. She had already decided to travel abroad for a PhD as there were few opportunities in India in the field of ecology. That was the time when the US Fish and Wildlife Service had a close connection with BNHS, collaborating on Salim Ali's long-term project on bird migrations. They were also exploring the possibility of China and Russia spying through these migrating birds. She learnt bird ringing and mist netting by volunteering with this project. The US FWS had also advertised a one-month workshop in Kanha National Park in 1982, and wildlife scientists from the US and Australia came there as resource persons. She attended this workshop, and remembers Mark Westoby and Stephen Harold Berwick. She says that she, "had my fill of tigers there". Dr Hemendra Singh Panwar was the head of Kanha NP at that time. She remembers an incident of cannibalism where a male tiger started feeding on another male he had killed in a fight. During this workshop, she learnt census techniques that wildlife biologists typically learn such as making casts of pug marks, different types of transects, tranquilisation techniques, etc. She got her first copy of Odum (Fundamentals of Ecology) during this workshop. She had also written the GRE, including one in advanced biology, and got a 99 percentile. She recalls that Salim Ali was invited to give the valedictory certificates at this workshop, and her mother had sent her GRE results through him. He also gave a hand written recommendation letter for her PhD applications. This was the time when Renee realised that wildlife biology was different from ecology, and that she wanted to do ecology. She notes that there aren't any good ecology textbooks since then, and that she is trying to get one written for India.

(00:44:49) Applying for a PhD abroad Renee recalls that it was expensive to send the PhD applications via airmail and scholarships were tough to get. She got through to Berkeley, UC Davis and Cornell, but there were no scholarships in these places. Oscar Owre, a friend of Salim Ali's was holding the Maytag Chair at the University of Miami, and there was an associated scholarship, which she applied for and got in 1982. Soon after reaching the US, there were a few months of intense reading to catch up on ecology and evolution. Theodore H Fleming was her PhD advisor. He was known as the Batman of the Neotropics, but also studied plant–animal interactions. Renee wanted to do her PhD research in India, and had to find her own funding for that. So, she spent some time writing grants and proposals for this research. At the end of '82, the BNHS was having a big jubilee celebration (centenary year), and she came to India for that and explored the possibilities for her research topic during that time (semester break). She had started thinking of Giant Squirrels and herbivory, since they were on the CITES list as an endangered species, and she had developed an interest in phytochemistry. She got a grant from the US Fish and Wildlife Service for her PhD field work which was from PL-480 funds. She remembers 1982 as being a very busy year, that bred independence. On being asked why she chose to do her PhD in India, she says that there were opportunities and projects available abroad, but she wanted to establish and develop her understanding of Indian systems. She mentions that her thesis committee from day one included experts on her research topic from both within and outside the university, and how their feedback was valuable.

(00:56:38) Organization for Tropical Studies (OTS) and trip to Costa Rica In 1983, she was one of 24 students selected for the field biology course by the Organisation for Tropical Studies, a consortium of universities from North and Central America. She spent two months in Costa Rica for this, and talks about the diversity of habitat types there – from volcanic lakes to tropical cloud forests and cerrados. The OTS had field stations across Costa Rica, and students spent 2–3 days in a place and conducted mini-projects. At each place, they were also given lectures by resident researchers and faculty. She recalls analysing data before the time of computers – using a slide rule, calculator and log tables – and doing statistical tests and finding p-values by hand. Students were exposed to a wealth of ideas in this trip. For instance, at La Selva Biological Station, researchers were trying out some of the first experiments in radio telemetry and had radio collared bushmaster snakes. The bushmasters are highly venomous, so the students were also given first-aid training on the very first day, including how to give antivenom injections, which they practiced on oranges. She has vivid memories of the Monte Verde cloud forests and the golden toads, which are now extinct due to the chytrid fungus. She also recalled visiting the Tortuguero National Park on the Atlantic Coast and tagging Ridley turtles when they came to the arribada, and a giant boa at La Selva with 50 babies. Another highlight of this trip was meeting Daniel Janzen, who is such an important figure in tropical biology. She mentions his 'Para taxonomy' initiative which involves local people in identifying diversity for posterity. She finds his work very inspiring. Renee remembers this trip as a being a steep learning curve for all the students and that they got on famously, and mentions that she is still in touch with many people from that time.

(01:10:00) Starting field work in India Renee chose two places for her PhD field - Magod in North Karnataka, a site of an abandoned dam, and Bhimashankar, a former sacred grove. At Magod, she was allotted one of the houses built for the engineers. She recalls that the Karnataka Forest Department was housed in Vidhan Soudha in Bangalore at that time, and remembers spending hours there waiting for her research permit, reading War and Peace. It was much easier to obtain the permit in Maharashtra. She looked for sites where the squirrels were not hunted and were not afraid of people, as she needed to conduct focal animal sampling for the whole day. At Bhimashankar, she got accommodation through the Tourism Development Corporation on a long lease. She recalls that the local people there had never encountered a single girl telling them what she needed, and driving around in her vehicle and living alone. She started her work there in November–December, a time when very strong winds hit the plateau every year and the trees are shaking, the whole forest shakes. She panicked and made a trunk call to her advisor, who calmed her down and encouraged her to persist. The winds did settle down and she was able to do her field work. She also chose two sites because they had different floristics and therefore different phytochemical combinations, and that would help in understanding how squirrels chose what plants to feed on.

(01:19:05) Field assistants – bonding and integrating with the local communities Initially, Renee was accompanied by her to-be husband at that time, Ulhas Rane. Renee recalls the day when their vehicle got stuck in some sticky mud, and they asked a Siddhi boy from the village who was standing and looking at them, to help. He helped them get the wheel out, and became her chief assistant, as he spoke Konkani. Renee couldn't speak Kannada, but she could speak Konkani with Mahadeva, the Siddhi boy. She had many other assistants, but says that Mahadeva was her best friend and assistant. He was an amazing person, as he was also epileptic, but it was considered a sign of the Devi visiting him, and he was considered blessed by the villagers. He refused to take medication for this reason. Renee recalls how he later he decided to elope with a girl from the Bhat community, but that didn't work out, and they were brought back. The Siddhi community in this village were unique as they are descendants of Ethiopian slaves. The Bhat young boys went to a Sanskrit school and one of her Bhat field helpers became a Sanskrit pandit. Renee says that she learnt so much from Mahadeva, and that he was brilliant at forest craft and kept her safe. She recalls an incident where a Bhat community member came on a Sunday (a holiday from field work) and asked for one of her trousers - he wanted pants like hers with all the many pockets. Renee also mentions that her vehicle was available for deliveries and other medical emergencies, and all the times she rushed such cases to the hospital in Yellapur. So, in this way, it was a symbiotic, mutualistic relationship between her and the people there. She also remembers them as being very protective of her. She had become a tourist attraction at her second field site at Bhimashankar in Pune District; this crazy single girl marching up and down the mountains, and the people made sure that neither she nor her work were disturbed. She was invited for all the functions in the village too. Now, three generations of field assistants have been working with her and her lab. The present generation says that their parents would scare them when they were kids saying the lady with the boots will come stomping and take you away (US Army surplus boots), and how she became the bogey-woman for kids when she was doing her PhD fieldwork. She agrees that ecologists need to talk about this bonding and integration with local people. Renee recalls another incident when she had finished her PhD and was back in Bombay. One day, out of the blue, her main field assistant at Bhimashankar and his family turned up at her door. He had developed oral cancer, and with her connections from her father's work (as a cancer surgeon), she was able to get him treatment. He survived, went back to his village and campaigned against tobacco. That whole area is tobacco-free now due to this and he became an anti-tobacco champion. Renee remembers how she went back with a grant from the World Wildlife Fund to study the socioeconomics of the 9 villages within the boundaries of Bhimashankar Wildlife Sanctuary. People used a lot of firewood as it gets very cold there. The then Divisional Commissioner of Pune sanctioned the first kerosene depot there, to reduce the fuel wood consumption. Now there is an LPG supplier. She remembers this work as being full of insights. The Mahadeo Kolis of Bhimashankar were originally hunter gatherers, and only grew some ambe mohur (a traditional rice variety), which takes 5 months to mature. They harvested food from the forest - crabs, mushrooms, ferns, honey, tubers. This gave her an opportunity to be privy to the ecosystem and how they were engaging with it.

(00:00:27) A typical day in the field during her PhD Renee describes how she conducted focal animal sampling of the Malabar Giant squirrels, keeping a full day record of the squirrel's activities. Individual squirrels can be identified through distinctive markings on their face and body. Spent 12 hours in the field every day, and it was often rainy; she used Rite in the Rain waterproof notebooks. Would transcribe her field notes after dinner with carbon paper every day, so that she had a backup copy and would regularly send one set of copies to Bombay for safekeeping, since there were no computers at that time. She followed 10–12 individuals for the whole year. Also collected the plants they feed on; they were very selective about which plant parts they ate. "Squirrels were superb chemists". Primus stoves and box ovens to dry the collected materials, and weighing balances that were very sensitive for that time –milligram weights that had to placed very carefully with a tweezer. Deep observations about Giant squirrel ecology and behaviour. A time before GPS, and so she had marked 5000 trees using a compass and a map; gridded the whole area into 50 m square blocks. "Squirrel soap opera every day!" She remarks about how the squirrels were accustomed to their presence, and about the interesting behaviours she observed, especially the interspecies interactions.

(00:16:34) Back to the US Her Maytag fellowship was over, so after finishing her field work, she took up a TA position at the University of Miami. She recalls the football players - the Gators, who would come to class wearing their football gear trying to intimidate the instructors, and how that didn't work on her. She also got a grant from the Chicago Zoological society to pay a data operator to help input the reams of behavioural data. She remembers the big Mainframe computers at that time, and recalls how one had to really plan and know what you wanted to do with the data, how you wanted to analyse it because you could not waste the time you were allotted at the mainframe. They also had computer consultants who helped them with using the computers.

(00:20:19) The PC revolution and bringing an IBM to Bombay Towards the end of her PhD in 1989, the PC revolution was happening in America. IBM and Apple were competing for PCs and selling them at the University for cutthroat prices, and she brought one back with her. It would have been one of the first computers in Bombay. She mentions that Rajiv Gandhi was Prime Minister and at that time, there were no taxes or custom duties on computers and accessories, so it was easy to bring it in. She recalls having to build a voltage converter as it ran on a different voltage, for the entire set – printer, monitor and CPU. She wrote most of the papers from her PhD from Bombay, and sent them to journals as hard copies by air mail. She especially remembers a software to make figures called Cricket Graph – one of the first software ever developed for this. It came in Floppy Disks, and she still has a box full of them as keepsakes. She also audited a course on multivariate analysis at the Psychology Dept before coming back, and also mentions the software SPSS. She noted how one had to be very clear in their thinking and writing in those days – no spellcheck and autocorrect, and which is why she encouraged her first students to also learn how to do complex calculations by hand.

(00:30:59) Cladistics She remembers how Jay Savage brought a team of his students to test out a workbook on the concepts of cladistics, which was just coming into vogue as a field. He was a famous herpetologist, and she recalls how useful the experience of being a guinea pig for the workbook was. She also remembers David Hillis. She later incorporated some of the exercises into a Diploma course she had developed on Conservation Biology at the BNHS. She notes how it was an exciting time, to be at the cusp of revolutions, in computers and in ecology and see the field developing before her eyes.

(00:35:36) Second US Fish and Wildlife Service Grant After coming back to India, she applied for another USFWS grant and she recalls David Ferguson, an officer who had worked with India for many years, who was helpful during the applications. That grant was run through the Wildlife Institute of India (WII). She had an offer from John Sale to join WII and taught a regular two weeks course there on community ecology from 1990 onwards for several years. But she didn't want to join there permanently, as she had seen some of the wildlife–forestry divide and did not think that was her cup of tea. Getting the grant again involved pushing papers, for which she stayed at the Young Women's Christian Association in Delhi. She remembers going to the Central Government Offices Complex (CGO) which houses the Ministry of the Environment and Forests, for the paperwork. In December 1989 or 90, she got a call from the Ministry saying "Here's a Christmas present for you - we've just signed the agreement for your grant to come through". She mentions that being persistent worked. She got her first PhD students, Hema Somanathan and Subhash Mali during this time, and they were registered at Bombay University. She notes that this was the time when they conducted a lot of surveys across the Western and Eastern Ghats to study the distribution of the Giant Squirrel, and were able to establish that the so-called sub species in the Dangs was extinct, as it had been hunted out. They tried to suggest alternative meats like poultry, but somehow it didn't catch on there. She talks about the colour cline of the Giant Squirrel – they are much darker in the south and were almost pale or beige in the Dangs, but then they went extinct in the Dangs. At this time, she also wanted to choose another site to do another replicate of her PhD work, and decided on Mookambika Wildlife Sanctuary, but soon after logistics were in place, they found out that the squirrels were being hunted there and could not continue their work. So, they went back to Bhimashankar. Hema started work on pollination and that's how Renee also got into that field. She notes that they were able to build a much stronger relationship with the villagers, which has continued till date. They developed a computer centre and a library in the village later. She notes that they rotated through villages for employing field assistants to make sure that it did not seem that only a few families were being favoured, and thus to avoid fights. She says that they had learnt quite a bit about village dynamics by now. She recalls that when the wife of one their field assistants became head of the panchayat, she got a call from them. She mentions that she never did it as a chore or a mission, but just that she got so easily integrated, that it was natural to do all these things. She also picked up the local dialect – "at least enough to fire somebody!". She remembered a radio interview that she had to do it in Marathi, and how that was hysterical (because she didn't speak Marathi very well), and how everyone had a good laugh about it. She feels that all field experiences, even later, have been a lot of fun and she felt integrated with the community. [00:42:26 -00:43:46 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details] (00:51:32) On "Women in Science" Renee never faced any issues in this regard, which is why she doesn't participate in Women in Science events. Even in her lab – she thinks of everyone as just people. She believes it was her upbringing, and that she never thought that she was not capable of changing a tyre or fixing something. She recalls how she once barged into Prakash Javadekar's house, who was the Minister for Environment and Forests, and CES funding was delayed. She realises that there are many areas where people have had a very rough time, and fully sympathises with that, and says that perhaps she has been fortunate in this regard. She mentions how her forthrightness got her into trouble at one point in her career, when she was asked to leave the BNHS, and there was a legal case against her. At that time, some people told her that it was because she was a woman, and she even got many letters in support, but she was still not ready to believe that – she still thinks it was just her calling a spade a spade that got her into hot water. She recalls how it was a rough three years, and how upset her husband was at that time, and that he might have kept some of those letters of support. But she was busy, and did not want to pay attention to all this – "because if you let yourself believe that you are a victim, then everything becomes overdramatised and seen in that light." She feels that she has seen the "victim card" being played too often, and honestly thinks that unless women can think of men as platonic friends, there will always be this issue. She never felt or considered herself different from men in any way.

(1:00:40) Joining the Centre for Ecological Sciences CES had not advertised for 10 years since Raman Sukumar had joined. The moment they did, she applied. At this point she remembers Shahin Ansari, one of the students from the diploma course at BNHS that she taught, who is an eminent invasive species biologist in Hawaii now. Renee also developed a course in Science Communication for the Xaviers College of Communications, perhaps the first of its kind in the country. It was an evening course, and she was involved with it for three years. She was contacted by Jane Swamy to create the course. She recalls using copies of Discover magazine which she had brought with her from the US as a teaching tool for the course. At IISc, there were nine shortlisted candidates for the CES Assistant Professor position. Renee remembers that Milind Watve was also on the list. G Padmanabhan was the Director of IISc at that time. Renee mentions that Rohini Balakrishnan also did her interview at the same time, perhaps via a phone call as she was in Germany then. It was just the two of them (Renee and Rohini) that were selected after a huge gap of ten years. Renee didn't want to be associated with any other place, and had respectfully declined other offers like WII. She recalls that for the first two years, they didn't have any lab space, and she had so much material that she had brought with her. She wrote her first DST grant soon after joining CES.

(1:10:00) The journey that led to fig wasps When she joined CES, Renee was still working on squirrels. Then she got a DST project to study Mussaenda frondosa floral displays, and became interested in ant-plants soon after. Doyle McKey, who was on her PhD thesis committee and working on ant-plants in Cameroon, had a student who came as a post-doc to India, and she started the work with him and the CNRS (French National Centre for Scientific Research) in France. His wife, Martine Hossaert worked on fig wasps and they wrote a joint Indo-French project on fig wasps. This was also the time when she collaborated with Jean-Marie Bessière, an organic chemist who specialised in perfumes, and that's how she got into chemical ecology. Her work in the field of visual ecology began with Hema's work on pollination. Renee recalls the discovery of a carpenter bee that was pollinating at night. She had presented the Mussaenda work at the Invertebrate Vision conference, and got into those circles. An Indo-Swedish grant came out of that and that's how they discovered new things about nocturnal bees. She mentions her associations with the Organisation for Tropical Studies and the ATBC, and that she has visited a lot of places from dragon in Komodo to Amazonia as an ATBC Council member, and as part of chemical ecology conferences including the Gordon conferences. Renee says that she now has many intersecting scientific circles that bring in different sensory biology perspectives. She always wanted to go into new areas – and now she is dabbling in bioengineering and has collaborated with a granular physicist for studying termite mounds and potter wasp nests.

(1:16:55) "Bhimashankar is special" Here Renee mentions that Bhimashankar holds a special place in her heart. Some memories that have stayed with her are using the bioluminescent fungi on twigs as night lights – whole trees would glow – and sambhar deer stags bellowing outside her window. She remembers the time there was leopard sitting on the tent platform outside her room. She talks again about the very long-standing relationship with the people there, and that she has fought many battles to try and keep Bhimashankar safe. She was also on the Western Ghats Ecology Experts Panel put together by Madhav Gadgil, and she talks about that being a great learning experience, especially interacting with activists. Renee points out that people in Bhimashankar are warkaris who don't eat a lot of meat, and how Bhimashankar is a collection of sacred groves, and therefore the Giant Squirrels were not hunted there. Similarly, Magod, her other field site was also inhabited by the Bhat community who were vegetarians. She contrasts this to Mookambika, where they later found out that there was also an illegal bison meat trade going to the UAE. According to her, this is why the culture of the people also has to be taken into consideration when choosing a field site. [01:20:36 - 01:21:07 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(1:23:15 to 1:29:00) Concluding thoughts – pollinator studies was an idea ahead of its time, and the need for ecology textbooks with examples from India Renee was convinced very early on that pollination was on the decline, and tried very hard to get funding from the Ford Foundation, but did not get it. That was in the early 2000s, so her idea was a decade and a half too early, she feels. Now there are big projects on pollinators and pollinator services. At that time, she was talking about preserving interactions between species, but people were focused on single species. Now everyone knows that you can't save one without the other, but at that time she was a lone voice. She is now on the IUCN Wild Bee Specialist Group trying to influence policy, and is also trying to get the Indian Council of Agricultural Research to introduce pollination as a regular subject in agricultural universities. She is also writing and editing several books as the Chief Editor for the Cambridge and IISc Press series on Ecology and Evolution. Hari Sridhar is writing one on classic papers in ecology, Kavita Isvaran and Suhel Qader are writing one on research design and Uma Ramakrishnan on Conservation Biology. She wants to have textbooks that include examples from India and the Global South. She is writing a book on plant–animal–microbe interactions for the series. She mentions her father's biography again, which is with the editors. In her role as the current Chief Editor of Journal of Biosciences, she is trying to give it an interdisciplinary approach. When asked to share her father's name, she mentions that normally, she hates it when people ask only the father's name or husband's name. Her father was Dr Ernest Joseph Borges and her mother was Gracie Soares Borges.

(0:00) Early Life and Education Jayshree Vencatesan spent much of her childhood in Andhra Pradesh in the cities of Guntur and Rajahmundry. Her father worked for Hindustan Lever. Her mother, before getting married to Vencatesan's father, was a teacher and after that, a home-maker. She has two younger brothers. She describes her household as "typical" and "middle-class." Vencatesan moved around schools a lot because of the kind of transferable job her father had. She went to a Catholic school after which she went to a government school. She completed her schooling at St. Joseph's in Guntur. She later went to college in Tirupathi where she said her interest in Biology began to grow. She later moved to Chennai for her doctoral studies. On being asked to elaborate on her early schooling, Vencatesan said that she completed her kindergarten years from the Sacred Heart Primary School. She describes the school as very "fun," with a lot of opportunities for students to play around. She used to walk down to the school every day with her brothers and friends. This, she states, was a very memorable phase in her life. She later transferred to another school which was slightly farther from her house. Vencatesan, her brothers and friends used to commute to the school in a hand-drawn rickshaw. To save money, they used to walk back. With the 40 paise that they managed to save, Vencatesan remembers buying candy and peanuts. Her walk back from school brought her near the river Godavari which flowed through Rajahmundry, where she went to school. She remembers how the river used to flood sometimes and volunteers had to use ropes to help people cross the river. Vencatesan switched schools again to pursue what she calls "serious education." She didn't want to name the school but she did not enjoy her studies there. She said that she was declared a "useless person," and this "branding" had a negative impact on her growing up so much so that in grades 8 and 9 she felt that her academic progress suffered although during the rest of her educational career she remained a topper, including placing fourth in the state during her grade 10th exams. [Archivist's note: Error in audio where the interviewer by mistake states that the interview is being done via Cleanfeed. The interview with Dr. Jayshree Vencatesan was recorded using Skype.]

(5:36) Interest in Biology Vencatesan talks about her interest in fieldwork, natural systems and the relationship between humans and nature. She said she had been interested in these topics from a very young age having lived near the Godavari channel for several years during her childhood. She talks of how the Godavari channel used to be notorious for flooding. People could sense these floods coming and she, along with her brothers used to watch the water levels rise as the channel flooded. She remembers being very fascinated by how entire houses used to be washed away because of these floods. Vencatesan wondered how people managed to live in such conditions. Vencatesan then goes on to talk about her fondness for art and paintings. She did receive some training during her early years in water colours. She even won both, national and regional-level prizes for her art. She remembers one particular painting very fondly which she drew when she was nine years old. The painting depicted a queue of people standing in front of ration shop.

(9:25) Family and Friends Vencatesan reverted to talking about her family and friends growing up. Her family is native to Andhra Pradesh (from Tirupati) although her mother was from Tamil Nadu. She states that she spent some of the happiest days of her life with her two brothers. One of her brothers is a chartered account, the other is in marketing. Growing up, she felt she and her brothers were like a gang in the neighbourhood. They also had a very large friends group growing up and she remains very good friends with them even today. Regarding her birthdate, Vencatesan said that she was born in 1966, although in official records her birthdate appears as 1965 because her mother had to "reschedule," her birthyear so that she was able to enrol in schools on time. Vencatesan said that while she chose to focus on ecology, her friends went into "regular," careers. On being asked to clarify what she means by "regular," careers, Vencatesan explained that in South India the acceptable career paths for most people would include medicine, engineering and chartered accountancy. Relative to that, her choice to work in biodiversity conservation was considered unconventional. She then states that her family was always known for their fondness of wildlife and animals. Her grandfather worked in the Forest Department, although Vencatesan has no memories of him.

(13:58) Writing the UGC and JRF Exams Vencatesan said that her goal in life was to "do something worthwhile." She had never dreamt that she would be working in ecology or that she would have founded an NGO. She completed her Master's, in which she was awarded a gold medal for securing the highest marks, and then began her M.Phil studies, only to realize that her research was not going anywhere. At the time, she was working in the field of community nutrition. She never completed her M.Phil. She then talks about wanting to sit for the Junior Research Fellowship (JRF) exams, but her university then, the Sri Venkateswara University, did not offer mentorship or support to students who wished to sit for such exams. When she finally found a coaching class, she had to borrow Rs. 500 for her father. She recalls a funny incident where she ultimately ended up using this money to settle her canteen bills and was not able to enrol in the coaching class. Despite that, she went on to become the only student to clear the fellowship exam. The day she wrote the exam was also the day she got engaged. She saw her engagement as "one more exam."

(17:50) Research on Community Nutrition Her research on community nutrition as a graduate student was on the effects of zinc and iron supplements in the diets of pregnant and lactating women.

(18:24) Meeting M.S. Swaminathan and Mrs. Meena Swaminathan In 1990, Vencatesan moved to Chennai after getting married. She also became pregnant with her daughter, because of which she found it difficult to get a job. Even in Chennai, her associates asked her to stay at home and take care of her child. Vencatesan recalls this as an especially low point for her in her life. She stayed at home and did paintings. One of her paintings was used by a women's activist group. Mrs. Meena Swaminathan, wife of M.S. Swaminathan saw her painting and requested a meeting with Vencatesan to commission more. Vencatesan describes Meena Swaminathan as very kind. She also met M.S. Swaminathan during this visit. She recalls being shocked to see him in person since she had grown up hearing stories about him. M.S. Swaminathan offered Vencatesan a job at the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation. Vencatesan then asked her father for help so that she could take up the job offer and have someone at home to take care of her still infant child. Her father (and mother) promised to relocate from Tirupati to Chennai on the condition that Vencatesan complete her doctoral studies.

(22:45) Hunger Project Fellowship Prior to beginning her doctoral work, Vencatesan received the Hunger Project Fellowship. She has had a strong interest in gender studies. Her work with this fellowship looked at female dependency. She appreciated the help and support that she got from local communities she worked with. She looked at the links between food security and female dependency across a wide range of landscapes including coastal and hilly terrains. She worked in Kolli Hills in the Eastern Ghats which at that time was a relatively understudied area. She met R.J. Ranjit Daniels, from the Indian Institute of Science, during this project. Daniels was the principal scientist at the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation at this time. She felt that Ranjit Daniels had the ability to mentor students and therefore wanted to work under him. Working with Ranjit Daniels cemented her interest in ecology.

(25: 30) M.S. Swaminathan and Meena Swaminathan Jayshree Vencatesan greatly admires M.S. Swaminathan. She states that he instilled confidence in her. She recalls M.S. Swaminathan telling her that she was "very good." M.S. Swaminathan also gave her opportunities to participate in all of the functions held at the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation including putting her in charge of an event which was attended by the then Chief-Minister of Tamil Nadu, J. Jayalalithaa. Vencatesan recalls Meena Swaminathan giving her a lot of freedom to do her research and admires her as a great mentor, as well.

(28:18) PhD Research Jayshree Vencatesan's doctoral work was centred around the links between biodiversity and gender in the Kolli Hills. Dr. Ranjit Daniels also had a team working in Kolli Hills researching birds, small mammals and amphibians. Vencatesan recalls travelling and researching with Dr. Daniels' team. One year into her fieldwork, Vencatesan discovered a burnt church in her field site. Later research carried out by Jayshree Vencatesan revealed that the church was owned by a J.C. Brandt. J.C. Brandt's son, Paul Brandt had started the leprosy centre at the Christian Medical College in Vellore, where Vencatesan had also interned for a while during her Master's. Vencatesan then contacted Dr. Paul Brandt who was able to give Vencatesan his father, J.C. Brandt's field notes and photographs about Kohli Hills. Paul Brandt's father had detailed records of the fauna of Kolli Hills. Inspired by these notes, Vencatesan shifted the focus of her doctoral work to look at the ecological history of the Kolli Hills. Vencatesan believes that this was the "best part," of her thesis. Vencatesan also wanted to find more about the Kolli Hills from an Indian perspective. Talking to an English professor at the International Institute of Tamil Studies, Vencatesan discovered that Kolli Hills had been directly referenced in Sangam literature that dealt with Tamil historiography. This knowledge helped her revisit her field and identify specific sites that were referenced in this literature. Vencatesan talks about identifying a female custodian deity, who had been referenced across Tamil literature. She talks about writing a paper about this deity with Professor Madhav Gadgil. She also chanced upon a Vaishnavite scholar who helped her discover that the Kolli Hills had been an integral part of an ancient Indian dynasty. The Vaishnavites' sacred texts also have clear references to Kolli Hills. Furthermore, Vencatesan also used the British Board of Revenue Records in her research. She also had a chance encounter with one of India's most famous wildlife photographers, while doing fieldwork. Vencatesan talks about visiting the photographer's home in Salem. The photographer's father used to be a zamindar and had old records that they then gave Vencatesan to use in her research. Vencatesan said that all these experiences ensured that her thesis was unique. She said she didn't plan on her thesis being so multi-disciplinary. When she was doing her PhD research, she felt she was a typical, South Indian looking women. She had long plaited hair and wore a saree. She also carried her child along in the field. People in the village used to be very amused by her because of this. Later, her father also helped out with taking care of her daughter while Vencatesan did fieldwork. Vencatesan said she has had many mentors to help her along her way.

(42:52) Positionality as Female Researcher On being asked to expand on her experience doing fieldwork as a female researcher, Vencatesan said that she felt most uncomfortable in urban settings, not rural ones. She said she felt very much at home with marginalized and low-income groups because that is the landscape she grew up in. She never had trouble connecting with such communities, either. Initially, she felt that her fellow researchers and some government officials were prejudiced against her, but now she has gained a lot of their respect. She also talked about meeting V. Krishnamurthy, a renowned vet, known for his work with elephants and his wife. Vencatesan remembers Krishnamurthy's wife being very surprised that Vencatesan was dressed in a sari and not the usual jeans or trousers that are normally associated with researchers or ecologists. Vencatesan said that by wearing traditional Indian garb during her fieldwork she was able to connect with community members more.

(47: 10) About Her Father When asked who her role model was, Vencatesan said it was her father. Her father led a simple life. She could not appreciate the simplicity of this life before, but now she realized her father never wasted his words. Being simple meant strength of character and maturity.

(48:30) Internship With Christian Medical College On being asked to elaborate on her internship with the Christian Medical College, Vencatesan said that it was her supervisor who gave her that opportunity. The internship was meant to help her enhance her fieldwork skills. Tasks included doing community and ethnographic services and recording observations.

(49:26) Paintings Vencatesan was very fascinated with painting and embroidery. If she needed to understand a concept better, she would invariably draw it. Recently, she has also picked up Adobe photoshop.

(51:12) Working With the Catholic Church of India Vencatesan talks about working with the Catholic Bishops Conference of India. She worked with several dioceses across the country. Her job was to help members of the Catholic Church integrate good conservation practises into their work. Vencatesan pointed out that the Catholic Church has always mobilized funds for natural resource management. Her task was to evaluate and guide them. She also talks of her work in Ajmer that included afforestation projects. She said even if she is unable to contribute to a project, she is always willing to learn. [00:52:41 - 00:54:27 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(55:50) Care Earth Trust Jayshree Vencatesan founded the Care Earth Trust after completing her PhD, along with Dr. Ranjit Daniels. She works in ecology conservation and the conservation of marshlands. Many people tried to deter her from pursuing a career in this field, encouraging her instead to work in the field of human-animal conflict. She still works with the initial wetland conservation project she began in 2001. She also did a project to protect a marshland in Chennai. That project, she said, can be a good global example of how science-based advocacy can lead to action.

(57:23) Restoration Process Vencatesan and Daniels founded Care Earth Trust in 2000. After that, she collaborated on projects that Dr. Daniels was given. She did administration work. When asked to explain the process of wetland restoration, Vencatesan said that the first step was to define a marshland's boundary. Drawing from her own experience, Vencatesan said that she first visited the village admin officer and found that most wetlands had been designated as wastelands by the locals. The second step in the restoration process was looking at colonial records. Finally, the third step was to demarcate the boundary of a wetland. She also talked about her work with the Tamil Nadu Forest Department. She also recalled the time her work on conservation of the Chennai wetlands was presented to the then Chief-Minister of Tamil Nadu, J. Jayalalithaa. In light of the 2005 Chennai floods, Jayalalithaa declared the marshland Vencatesan was working with a reserve forest. Vencatesan also draws up management plans as part of her work in wetland restoration. On being asked to explain significance of wetlands, Vencatesan said that wetlands provide vital ecosystem services. Wetlands also have a very close relationship with human civilizations. [01:00:44 - 1:01:00 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(1:04:57) Wetland Management and Women Communities Vencatesan recalls an interesting anecdote. She was working on a project for the Tamil Nadu Forest Department where she noticed that the wetlands were dry. She talks about engaging with the local women community of that area who knew a lot about the ecosystem. The women were able to point out the significance of the river Kaveri in managing the wetland ecosystem there. The significance of Kaveri to this particular wetland was a point even Vencatesan was not aware of. Vencatesan was surprised that these women who had never seen a map or satellite imagery in their lives could sketch out their ecosystem so well.

(1:12:25) Indigenous Knowledge On asked whether indigenous knowledge also has its own vocabulary to talk about biodiversity and conservation, Vencatesan said that we must not assume that only English and science have these concepts. The Tamil language has a detailed set of idioms that has been used for centuries to talk about wetlands. Local communities and various indigenous knowledge systems can talk about natural systems in a lot of depth. Unfortunately, this traditional ecological knowledge is not being made part of the larger conversation around biodiversity conservation at the national level. Traditional knowledge needs to be used in drafts and policies but at the legal level, Vencatesan believes we have been very dismissive of traditional knowledge. She also said that researchers need to go into the field with humility and try and work with the local communities there to see how they understand their natural surroundings. This will help researchers draft evidence-based policies. When asked whether she still attends international research conferences, Vencatesan said she has stopped going to those and works primarily in Tamil Nadu. Currently, Vencatesan is working on restoration projects in Chennai and in the Western Ghats. These projects combine science with traditional knowledge.

(1:22:25) Care Earth Trust's Work Vencatesan describes some of the projects Care Earth Trust has been involved in. They do community-based work, i.e. work that requires local engagement. Vencatesan said they primarily take up projects that lead to policies, and not basic research. Care Earth Trust's mandate is to do applied research. They have drafted various management plans for the Tamil Nadu government. They have also helped guide the construction of buildings- an IIT campus and other institutional infrastructures-keeping in mind the ecology of the region. As Managing Trustee, Vencatesan defines scientific agenda, mobilizes funds and mentors colleagues at the Care Earth Trust.

(1:28:22) Tamil Nadu Women's Developmental Corporation Vencatesan talks about the Tamil Nadu state's initiative to improve and promote sustainable livelihood among women. Her job as part of the Tamil Nadu Women's Developmental Corporation includes helping in training and capacity building. For women, biodiversity conservation needs to make economic sense and so her job is to try and help women understand how conservation can improve their livelihoods. Vencatesan said that when women are given the opportunity to make decisions, they do "smart thinking." Unlike men, Vencatesan said that women look at "intangible," and not economic benefits. Women look at what might benefit society the most. Vencatesan talks about one project she is currently undertaking that encourages women farmers in peri-urban areas to do organic farming.

(1:33:02) Parents Vencatesan describes her mother as a very "intelligent woman," who excelled in all the goals she set for herself. Growing up, Vencatesan did challenge her leadership, though. Vencatesan recalls an incident, when in a fit of anger towards her mother, she went around school and spread false rumours about her parents getting a divorce. Her mother used to be a part time teacher and taught at the nearby slums. Her father she describes as very generous. He had no tolerance for people who spoke ill of other communities or religions. She said her family was very liberal.

(1:38:22) Safety in the Field When asked about whether she ever felt uncomfortable during her fieldwork, Vencatesan recalls times when she felt very unsafe. Once, five men jumped into her room. She had also had people make leud comments about her. She felt very sad that women have to experience such harassment. She has only had these experiences in very privileged, "high profile," spaces. Vencatesan also said that the Care Earth Trust is very strict about their female colleagues' safety.

(1:41:28) Ecofeminism When asked to elaborate on ecofeminism, Vencatesan said that women's lives are invariably organized around nature. Ecofeminism in India has not been able to tap into the depth of knowledge that women have about nature. She talks about the Hunger Project, too. In that project, Vencatesan learnt that when women have access to natural resources, food security among them is much better.

(1:45:05) Personal Life Now Her daughter currently also works in Care Earth Trust. Vencatesan lives in Chennai but she says that her compound is surrounded by trees and looks almost like a rural area. Her husband is also very supportive. Care Earth Trust also works in animal welfare and rehabilitation. Vencatesan talks about her fondness for animals. Vencatesan talks about her achievements. She considers the response that she gets from community members that she works with a true measure of her success. She said she feels very proud of the recognition that she gets from them and government officials.

(1:52:30) Teaching Talks about teaching human ecology at colleges.

(1:54:43) Oral History Vencatesan said that oral histories are repositories of knowledge if you can guide it. She said it is difficult to construct a timeline with oral history. Oral history can be used to document protests about natural resources. [01:55:29 - 01:59:23 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(2:02:20) Covid-19 Pandemic Vencatesan believes that the Covid-19 pandemic occurred because of human beings' abuse of nature. She added that in the grand scheme of things, humans are a very insignificant species and need to be more humble.

(0:00) Parents and childhood Gadgil was born in 1944 in Pune. Her father was a medical practitioner, and her mother was a "literary figure". She adds that her family was progressive and emphasized education for girls. She recounts that they lived in the "heart of Pune", first in Sadashiv Peth and then in Prabha Chowk. She did her primary schooling in a Marathi medium school in Pune. She then recalls that many of her cousins – whose parents worked in the Indian Railways – were going to Rishi Valley School, and so her parents decided to send her and her older sister to the school as well. She recalls that Rishi Valley School had a very "unique atmosphere". She was there for three and a half years. She then returned to Pune to do her undergraduate degree in Bachelor's in Sciences from Fergusson College. She speaks about her undergraduate college experience. She then did her Masters in Applied Mathematics from Pune University. She speaks about the freedom movement and her family's involvement in it. Her grandfather, V.D. Pathak was a doctor and a freedom fighter part of the Mulshi Satyagraha. She says that Senapati Bapat stayed at her house and that there were always people planning strategies for the freedom movement; their living room began to be called the Liberty Hall. Her father, Y.D Pathak was also a doctor. He had a practice in allopathy as well as Ayurveda and yoga. Her mother, Indumati Pathak was married after 12th-standard. She did her Bachelors in arts after having her first two children. Gadgil recalls the upbringing given by her mother: her mother with four daughters went for plays and had many conversations around the dinner table. Her father stayed late at the dispensary, so he wasn't present at dinner. Sulochana Gadgil is the 3rd daughter.

(00:05:53) Experiences at Rishi Valley School She was 11 years old when she went to Rishi Valley and joined either the 4th or the 5th class. She says she picked up English quickly and noted that the presence of Marathi-speaking students made it easier to communicate with other students. She attended higher-level mathematics classes, which was possible at Rishi Valley School. She further describes the atmosphere at Rishi Valley. She returned to Pune to give her 11th grade exam. She recounts that she didn't give her 11th grade exam at Rishi Valley because of her older sister's experience. Gadgil's father, was concerned about Gadgil's grades and therefore decided to call her back to Pune to give the exam. The 11th grade exam was the Secondary School Leaving Certificate (SSLC) and after the exam is college. She was 14 years at the time of the exam. She notes that Rishi Valley gave her a passing certificate a year early, saying that this was acceptable at Rishi Valley. She adds that she didn't think she was not educated up to the 10th and that studying for the SSLC exam was difficult because she had to catch up on two years of study. (00:09:07) Fergusson College and MSc She speaks about the structure of her undergraduate degree. She adds that in the 1960s, 11th grade was considered as pre-degree and the 12th grade was considered as pre-professional. The subjects she chose in her undergraduate degree were chemistry, physics and mathematics. She knew she wanted to study mathematics but didn't have an idea about what career she wanted. She wanted to continue in mathematics and therefore did her Masters in the subject. She adds that there were only exams during her Masters.

(00:11:05) Madhav Gadgil and marriage She mentions that Madhav Gadgil was also a student at Fergusson College and recounts how they met. He was doing his undergraduate degree in biology and then went to Bombay to do a Master's degree in marine biology. He wanted to go abroad for his Ph.D. Madhav's mother wanted him to marry an Indian girl before he went abroad. He knew of Sulochana through college. She mentions that he knew that she did well academically, so he suggested her name. He also wanted someone who wanted to get a higher education. She speaks about when Madhav's mother came to Sulochana's house with a marriage proposal. She says that the Gadgils were a well-known and respectable family, mentioning D.R. Gadgil, a prominent economist. Year: 1964.

(00:14:43) Applying for PhD Gadgil recounts that they wanted to apply for Ph.D. abroad rather than looking for a job in India. She didn't have an idea of what to apply her maths to. Madhav Gadgil suggested that she apply her maths to physical oceanography. Out of the universities they applied to, two universities gave them admission with scholarships: British Columbia and Harvard. They chose Harvard. They got married in June 1965, and in September 1965, they went to the US. She recounts that she didn't actively didn't look up the faculty while applying. She filled in the required details in the application form. She adds that none of her family had gone abroad before. Madhav Gadgil's father and brother had gone abroad to Cambridge to study. She adds that Madhav Gadgil got admission after a meeting with Harvard Professor Giles Mead in Bombay.

(00:17:56) USA and Harvard She recounts their stay at Harvard. She and Madhav Gadgil went together, and Harvard was friendly. She speaks about the host program; a senior student would take care of the new students. She recounts that she thought the Harvard people would be more intelligent, but she later reassessed. The only researcher studying physical oceanography at Harvard was Allan Robinson. She talks about Harvard and the coursework, describing the place as "strict but open". Robinson made her audit many varied courses. She speaks about students and mentions that there were few female students at Harvard. She speaks about the activist life at Harvard and the various talks she heard, such as anti-Vietnam talks. She notes that the place was interdisciplinary, which helped them make friends from different places. She speaks about evolutionary biologists and her acquaintance with them. She mentions that she wore a sari and rode a bicycle at Harvard, making her stand out. She talks about the attitude of American students, and she recounts that they weren't racist. She talks about the literature she read about racism, such as books on the Apartheid movement in South Africa.

(00:24:16) Research at Harvard She recalls that Allan Robinson wanted to solve how the Gulf Stream meanders, and he suggested she work on the problem. She says that Harvard taught her how to mathematically model. There were a few advantages of working at Harvard; she mentions the proximity of Harvard, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). She could attend talks at these three institutes allowing her to meet many people working in this domain. She speaks about Jule Charney and the course he taught on fluid dynamics. She enjoyed his teaching style and how he frequently recited poetry in the middle of lectures. She recounts that he was the father of atmospheric physics. The switch from physical oceanography to atmospheric dynamics was not difficult as the fields studied different fluids. She speaks about how she joined Jules Charney's lab. She recalls that Charney was happy with a term paper she had done with him. Madhav Gadgil finished his Ph.D. one year ahead, and Harvard had offered him a faculty position for three years. She wanted to work on the monsoon, and she suggested that she could work as a post-doctoral researcher at Charney's lab. She asked Charney, and he took her. She recounts that Charney introduced her to TM Krishnamurthy at Florida State University and helped them collaborate. She adds that Harvard was also thinking of hiring her, but she and Madhav Gadgil didn't want to stay in the USA and start a family there.

(00:31:17) Returning to India and working in Pune at IITM They returned to Pune, India, and joined as Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) pool officers. She had written to the Indian Institute of Tropical Meteorology (IITM) earlier, but she got no response. They came to Pune because it was their hometown and because both IITM and IMD were in Pune and the Maharashtra Association for the Cultivation of Sciences (MACS), where Madhav Gadgil could join.

(00:32:17) Work and Atmosphere in Jule Charney's office She doesn't remember what work she did while she was a post-doctoral student with Charney. She audited a course by Edward Lorenz and went to seminars. She worked with Charney but didn't publish a paper with him.

(00:34:15) Work at IITM and with D.R. Sikka Sulochana Gadgil speaks about sharing an office with D.R. Sikka and Y. Ramanath while working at IITM. She was interested in the monsoon and the theories of V. Ramaswamy. She spoke to Sikka about it, and he took her to see the weather charts, and they collected data. The data was related to the influence of mid-latitude circulation on monsoon. Charney developed his theory of Intertropical Convergence Zones (ITCZ). Sikka and others at IITM were interested in ITCZ. Ramanath was interested in numerical weather prediction (NWP). Sulochana Gadgil says that she still had data and the original NWP codes from her time at Harvard and MIT, which she gave to Ramanath. She recalls that the office they shared was different from a typical government office, calling the workplace "wonderful". She reflects Sikka's work ethic, saying he would stay back in the evening to work on research problems. Sikka was very well versed in the research literature, especially those by Indian researchers. She further remembers that Sikka did not get a promotion at IITM for eight years due to internal politics, and she adds that that didn't bother Sikka.

(00:37:20) On joining Indian Institute of Science (IISc) Sulochana Gadgil says that she never spoke to Satish Dhawan about the job at IISc. She recounts that P.K. Das had spoken to Dhawan about hiring a meteorologist. Dhawan was a fluid dynamicist and was interested in the monsoon. He wanted someone at IISc to study atmospheric dynamics. She mentions that IISc had people working on fluid dynamics and aerodynamics. Shankar Rao was hired before Sulochana Gadgil. She gives her opinion that it is difficult for meteorologists to interact with other scientists. Though Shankar Rao was a good scientist, she wasn't sure the meteorology department could grow under his leadership. Satish Dhawan asked Das if he knew any meteorologists who then mentioned it to Sikka. Sikka referred Das to Gadgil. She comments on Das's personality, calling him a "peculiar man". Das told Dhawan that Gadgil might not want to join IISc because she and her husband had a house in Pune. She recounts that this was "amazing thinking for a scientist". She mentions that Sikka was "a genuine scientist" and that he told her to apply to Dhawan since there is no better place than IISc to do research. She also sent Madhav Gadgil's application. She mentions that Dhawan and E.C.G. Sudarshan started the Centre for Theoretical Studies in 1972. Its charter noted that it would be a centre for theoretical scientists from any discipline. They gave a seminar at IISc after which they were offered jobs. (00:41:29) Moving to IISc and starting a family Sulochana Gadgil recounts that they did not have their children in the USA because they didn't want them to have the choice of being American citizens. They started their family in 1972. She says that shifting to Bangalore was tough with the baby. Gadgil mentions that finding houses in Bangalore was difficult. She says that today IISc has lots of faculty housing. They both enjoyed being with children, and they were conscientious parents. She recounts that it was tough for her since she had to run the house. An old domestic worker who had worked for Madhav Gadgil's family, Sakharam, came to Bangalore with them, and his additional support helped. She adds that she couldn't publish as much as she could have done without a family. She mentioned that she was okay with not publishing as much. She didn't want to be a part of the rat race, attributing this, in part, to Rishi Valley School's atmosphere. She speaks about women in the workplace today who are "career-minded" and push for paper publications. She says she didn't get promoted in her first year at IISc because she hadn't published enough papers. The following year she got an early promotion. She says she doesn't think she's lost out on much. She also mentions that finances were not an issue with two people earning money. Their son was born in 1974. She speaks about child care at IISc. Sudarshan decided that there wouldn't be any teaching at CTS, and he wanted the faculty to collaborate with other scientists. She didn't have the pressure of teaching, and she was free to work whenever she wanted.

(00:49:02) Work at CTS and the paper on northward propagation of monsoon She organized seminars and workshops at IISc with fluid dynamists to discuss research problems on the monsoon. She recalls when M.P. Singh from the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Delhi, came for one of the seminars and noticed that the team at IISc was also interested in similar problems in meteorology. She recounts that M.P. Singh was the enterprising organizer. In 1977, he organized an international meeting where she gave a talk on the orography of the monsoon. At this meeting, she spoke to Charney. Charney had worked on how desertification can have an impact on the monsoon. He suggested to Sulochana Gadgil that she and her colleagues should look at satellite pictures. Sikka was trained in satellite meteorology under the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP). Sikka had collected satellite images that NOAA had distributed. Sikka knew how to identify the rain bands using an infrared technique, and then they began looking at what the rain bands were doing over the Indian longitudes. They looked at data from May to October over five years. He knew of a paper showing that "the trough at 700 millibars (3 km from the Earth's surface) is the centre of the rainy belt". Sikka also made them look at data at the 700 millibar trough, which Gadgil says made their work relevant. They made observations by seeing the brightness of the cloud band. They discovered new features of the monsoon cloud band over the equatorial region that keeps moving northward every 30 to 40 days year after year. They showed that the larger meteorological system at play was the same as Charney's ITCZ. She says that many researchers didn't grasp the paper's significance until later. They did more work that contested the land-sea breeze hypothesis.

(00:54:40) Climate research group and BOMEX, ARMEX and MONTBLEX She, Sikka, and colleagues at IISc, such as Roddam Narasimha and J. Srinivasan, worked on the Indian Climate Research Proposal. They realized a need for concerted efforts. They needed to list the critical areas of study in Indian meteorology. They realized that they had never done an observational program. They drafted a science plan for the Indian climate research program with ten years for implementation. She notes that the Indian International Ocean Expedition wasn't something Indians started, and it was all foreign. At IISc, G.S. Bhat, an engineer, brought expertise in observational experimentation to carry out observational fieldwork. Under Narasimha's leadership, she says observational projects such as MONTBLEX were taken forward. Sulochana Gadgil talks about the support government departments such as the Department of Science and Technology (DST), and the Department of Defence (DOD) gave the projects. She recalls that CLIVAR (Climate and Ocean: Variability, Predictability, and Change) triggered the beginning of the observational projects. An Indian researcher abroad contacted them, saying their team would do observational experiments in India, which the IISc team refused. The team at IISc which included Sulochana Gadgil came up with a science plan. They went to the DST secretary and other funding agencies for funds. Further support came from IMD and IITM. She notes that it was essential to get support from IITM and IMD because individuals from these two organizations will be at the site of the project handling various equipment for experiments and observations. (01:00:03) Setting up Centre for Atmospheric and Oceanographic Science Roddam Narasimha proposed to set up a Centre for Atmospheric Science. After taking on feedback from colleagues at IISc, he presented a proposal for the Centre to the Ministry of Education. It was in the 1980s. The Centre had researchers from IISc, but none were meteorologists. She recounts Narayana Iyengar, a civil engineer and an expert in stochastic processes, was the first person who became associated with the Centre. Many others associated with Narasimha and who were working on the boundary layer project became associate faculty at the new Centre. Sulochana Gadgil explains that Narasimha thought monsoon research needed a "good push." They required a core team of researchers to study the monsoon. Sulochana Gadgil and Shankar Rao were two, but Narasimha wanted more people. B.N. Goswami, one of the Centre's first hires. After Sulochana Gadgil became chairman of the Centre, they hired Bhat. Bhat came to work with Narasimha instead of going to Caltech. DOD wanted to support the new Centre, for which she wrote a proposal. The DOD wanted ocean in the name, so they changed it to CAOS. They then got Sengupta. After she stepped down from Chairman of CAOS, J. Srinivasan took over. She says he was a good teacher and a good judge of people, hiring several new researchers. They hired Ravi Nanjundiah because they needed someone competent in computer models.

(01:05:14) Work on monsoon, agriculture and economics Gadgil recounts that she got interested in monsoon and agriculture because, "Everybody talks about how important the monsoons are, but there was never any data about the monsoons were actually important." She recounts contacting people regarding the monsoon's effect on agriculture. A.B. Joshi was an agricultural expert. He told her to reach people at International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics (ICRISAT). She visited and developed a good rapport with them. They collaborated with the farmers, which gave her the exposure to agriculture that she needed. Madhav Gadgil had a student, Seshagiri Rao. He was a farmer and student of ecology at IISc. CAOS and the Centre for Ecological Studies (CES) shared the same building, and that is how she knew him. She recounts the incident of rain in Pavagada. Sulochana Gadgil and Seshagiri Rao had different observations; Seshagiri said it shouldn't be raining in October-November in Pavagada, while Sulochana Gadgil said such rain was expected for Karnataka. She recounts inquiring into the different varieties the farmers were growing. She says the farmers there used to grow long-duration varieties, but later a short-duration variety was imported from Coimbatore, giving good yield for a few years. But the short-duration variety needed to be harvested in October. Sulochana Gadgil says that she and Seshagiri wrote papers on the value of forecasts and what benefits forecasts. She mentions the Umbrella problem that farmers had: whether it would rain or not rain. Seshagiri had good knowledge of agriculture, and he knew many farmers and discussed the economics of their farming with them. She mentions that their first paper was on forecasts. Sulochana Gadgil recounted an incident when farmers came to IISc. The farmers said that Gandhi Krishi Vigyana Kendra (GKVK) gave them recommendations. They recommended that dryland, rain-fed farmers sow groundnut. She elaborates on the farmer's agriculture practices. She says that GKVK made recommendations on when to sow groundnut and sow soya. The farmers reported that the advice was wrong and asked the group at IISc to help them out. She recounts a scientist Pyarasingh at ICRISAT, who had a groundnut model validated for the Anantapur region. She and her colleagues validated a crop model. They used rainfall data and the crop model and derived the variability. Using that model, Sulochana Gadgil notes, they found that the farmers were right about the sowing dates. She speaks about how such an approach could be used for the Pavagada region. They took these results back to the farmers. She adds that a particular farmer, Lakshman, discussed which stage is the most sensitive for a plant. The farmer answered that it was the pod-filling stage. The results of the experiments Sulochana Gadgil and her collaborators carried out also validated the farmer's observation. She speaks about how this led to future work with International Research Institute (IRI). She opines that agricultural scientists aren't considering the farmers' requirements and that the "cost-benefit ratio of strategies" isn't calculated. She adds that she doesn't think enough collaborative work exists between farmers and scientists in India. Many agricultural scientists have moved to climate change. She moved on to other work because of a lack of response on the part of institutes and governmental organizations. She speaks about an incident where she was told that her recommendations to use crop pigeon pea weren't necessary. She thought that people aren't thinking of these matters and science in an interdisciplinary way. She adds that many organizations only prepare a package and "preach" but do not have a network to get feedback about their recommendations. Mentions that there are "like minded" individuals who are working on agricultural research. [Archivist's note: Break in interview from 01:19:20 to 01:20:52] [01:17:18 - 01:17:20 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(01:23:05) Work on agriculture and GDP She says that the media talks about the monsoon's effect on the GDP. She also worked similarly on the GDP problem and approached economists. She says there is data on GDP and food grains. She and her son would discuss the GDP and monsoon link. They then began to work on it together. They found out "quantitative assessment of monsoon on GDP and agriculture." IITM had done previous work on the impact on food grain. GDP hadn't been assessed.

(01:25:10) Publishing from India Sulochana Gadgil recounts that it was difficult to publish her work with Indian collaborators. It wasn't tricky publishing while she was at Harvard, and she adds that the "address matters." She wrote a single-author paper at Harvard on the Gulf Stream jets and recalled that she had no trouble publishing the paper. She remembers that the paper she wrote with Sikka faced issues during publication, and it was only published after Tetsuzo Yasunari published similar work using satellite images. She says that today India has more credibility. She mentions that she didn't have connections with journal editors. She recalls she began working on the SST Threshold after Ed (?) requested her to speak about the ocean and monsoon connection at a seminar. They submitted the paper to the Journal of Atmospheric Sciences. She says their research showed "outstanding results," but the publisher rejected it. She gave a presentation at a conference organized by Adrian Gill and Ed. Adrian Gill heard the presentation. Sulochana Gadgil and he decided to submit a short piece on the work to Nature. She adds, "Only fools used to submit to Nature in those days," because the paper would be rejected. Nature accepted the paper because of Adrian Gill. Later papers validated their work. She recounts incidents when she has been asked to write correspondences for journals. She recounts an incident when a co-student, George Philander, asked her to write a review paper for Annual Reviews on the land-sea breeze hypothesis. She says that if she wants to publish fast, she publishes in Indian journals and asks for reviews from established names in the field. She tells her students not to add her name to the papers saying that certain people don't want her to get credit, mentioning "foreign editors" and their "petty jealousies."

(01:31:13) Leaving CTS to start CAOS She says that it wasn't her decision but the director's (C.N.R. Rao) to start CAOS. Madhav Gadgil got his funding to set up CES, while Narasimha got the budget to set up CAOS which Sulochana Gadgil helped set up. She recalled that C.N.R. Rao had said that since both she and Madhav had set up two new institutes in their own field, they didn't need to remain at CTS.

(01:32:40) Work on Indian Dipole oscillation and EQUINOO Sulochana Gadgil recounts that 2002 was an "intriguing drought" and "no one had predicted it." Dr. R.R. Kelkar, the then director of IMD, called a meeting to discuss 2002. In the 1980s, Sikka established that monsoon variability is due to ENSO. During El Nino, one expects drought, and during La Nina, one expects heavy monsoons. But 2002 didn't have a strong El Nino. In 1997, when there was the strongest El Nino of the century, India got average rainfall. She says that these observations defied the above rule. There were successive droughts in 1986 and 1987, and the latter part of the year was an El Nino. They were following satellite images trying to predict the weather patterns of 2003. Meanwhile, they were working on the Indian Ocean Dipole. It is an oceanic feature but a coupled phenomenon. The 1997 year showed a strong positive IOD event, and in such events, monsoon is favoured. The author of the IOD paper was Vinayachandran, Sulochana Gadgil's student, and Toshio Yamagata, with whom Vinayachandran worked in Japan. P. Francis and Sulochana Gadgil wondered about the IOD problem. When Vinayachandran returned to IISc, they started working on it. That is how EQUINOO was discovered. She recalls that her son participated in this project. Sulochana Gadgil, along with her students, looked at ENSO and EQUINOO. When they factored in both phenomena, they saw that they could explain extreme weather phenomena. She says that when they plotted both on a graph, one could see a separation between the drought years and the years with excess monsoons. They needed to know if the separation was significant. Sulochana Gadgil says her son helped derive statistics from showing the significance, and they found a significant difference.

(01:37:53) Modelling and computers at IISc Sulochana Gadgil says that the equations used for modelling were complicated, and she knew about modelling during her Ph.D. She didn't work in modelling. J Srinivasan was in IIT Kanpur, and he visited Narasimha at IISc. He shifted to IISc because he liked the environment. He was a mechanical engineer, and he was interested in radiation. He joined CAOS. He picked up climate dynamics. He knew how to model. Ravi Nanjundiah later joined, and J Srinivasan trained him. She recounts that Peter Webster read Sikka and Sulochana Gadgil's paper on ITCZ, and he was excited. He made a simple model, and his model predicted northward propagations. She recounts that he was excited when he found out his model's prediction had been observed. She and Ravi Nanjundiah and J Srinivasan subsequently worked on Peter Webster's model. She doesn't remember when computers were introduced at IISc. She recalls computers were at Harvard in the 1960s.

(01:41:41) Retirement Sulochana Gadgil says that she didn't have to decide to retire; the rules in India dictated her retirement. She says that Madhav Gadgil retired when he was 60. The following year the retirement age shifted to 62. She adds that they moved to Pune after their retirement because Madhav Gadgil enjoys Marathi, and IITM and IMD are located in Pune, where she can continue to work. She works from home. She is (at the time of the recording) working on the monsoon of 2021 and 2022. She says that due to the COVID-19 pandemic, she has not been able to visit Bangalore for two years. Most of her collaborative work has happened through phone conversations.

(01:44:09) Time as Chairman of CAOS Sulochana Gadgil says the goal as the chairman of CAOS was to nurture the department in the core areas. She spent time interacting with young people. She went to conferences and was abroad because she was on international committees. She recalls that she was looking for good Indian students at these places and would invite them to give talks. She said she recruited Bhat that way. She adds that CAOS had a lab and observation arm, rare in centres. She was also scouting two students from Princeton, but they didn't come. Ravi Nanjundiah joined because they needed a modeller. They also required faculty to teach courses. She recalls that she had to teach two lessons before and that it used to be complicated.

(01:46:03) On her family Her daughter is a journalist, and a badminton champion currently competing in the Asian championship. Her daughter has two daughters of her own. The second daughter is in Rishi Valley School. Her son is a mathematician, and his wife is an economist who works on climate change. Her son-in-law is a mechanical engineer who makes trackers for solar energy. She says she is blessed. Madhav Gadgil has written his scientific autobiography (at the time of recording). She says she is still working on "figuring out what makes the monsoon tick."

Rohini Godbole discusses her childhood and early life, growing up in Deolali and Pune. She talks about her family's financial and educational background. She shares her mother's academic aspirations and struggles to fulfil her education while managing their home.

She shares memories of schooling, participation in debates, competitions, extempore and inclination to mathematics, sanskrit and science. She credits her mentors for guiding her toward a science scholarship, their efforts in helping her become familiar with English. She reflects on the importance of having had teachers who were open to feedback.

She talks about her parents' role in creating an intellectually stimulating environment at home, influence of Pune's cultural environment and the differences in India when she was born and 75 years after Independence.

(00:00:00) Family background, financial struggles and sacrifices

(00:10:01) Mother's journey of pursuing BA externally while managing family; emphasis on education in family despite financial constraints

(00:13:21) Schooling in Pune; mother's contribution, early academic challenges and subsequent excellence

(00:18:44) Participation in debates, competitions, giving speeches, school rules and culture

(00:22:05) Mother's pursuit of external M.A., intellectual discussions at home, parents support

(00:28:46) Mentorship to obtain science scholarship in 7th grade, essay writing

(00:32:55) Learning English through cataloging and reading literature

(00:34:47) Reading about life of scientists; peek into logical thinking; family discussions on science

(00:40:22) Mother's participation in tutoring hostellers, and in school activities; winning science prize in 11th grade

(00:43:13) Mother pursuing B.Ed at the age of 43 and teaching; indirect influences of mother's personality

(00:45:19) Godbole's essay critique leading to school's curriculum reforms; openness of Principal; some humbling experiences in school

(00:53:09) Schooling years as rich and rewarding. Involvement in arguments and debates about independent India's stance and journey; early thoughts on career

(00:58:14) Pune's cultural environment and influence on Godbole's worldview; more about parents' ideologies

[01:04:29 – 01:04:42 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(01:06:00) Reflections on describing herself as being born 5 years after independence

(01:13:25) Engagement with diverse political perspectives and reflections on India's journey

(01:16:57) Parents as first teachers and mentors

Rohini Godbole reflects on her formative years and how childhood experiences influenced her career choice. She discusses her early academic achievements, her interest in mathematics and sanskrit, and the decision to pursue science over other fields.

She narrates her experiences in obtaining the National Science Talent Search (NSTS) Scholarship and the impact it had on her choice to specialise in physics. She highlights her experiences at Sir Parashurambhau College, exchange programs, summer schools, mentorship and interactions with peers that shaped her academic path.

She describes her transition to IIT Bombay, throws light on gender dynamics in classrooms, talks about the kind of student she was and the interactions she had with fellow classmates and discusses the inspiring lectures she had.

She talks about the importance of interdisciplinary approaches in education and social responsibilities of scientists. She shares her journey of applying for graduate studies in the United States of America and her decision to take up the offer at Stony Brook University (SUNY – State University of New York). She shares her attempts to secure financial aid to travel to the USA. She reflects on how she was able to persevere despite being a short-statured woman in physics.

(00:00:00) Reflection on childhood, schooling, and academic influences

(00:01:48) School achievements and decision to pursue an intellectual career

(00:04:55) Choosing science over mathematics and obtaining the Jagannath Shankarsheth Scholarship

(00:07:11) Preparing for and securing the NSTS Scholarship; early exposure to physics mentors

(00:17:07) Undergrad in Sir Parashurambhau College (SP College)

(00:21:26) Getting SP College recognised for NSTS; extra curricular activities and hobbies

(00:25:09) Inter-university exchange to Dharwad and meeting D R Bendre

(00:26:24) Influence of NSTS Scholarship on physics specialization; exposure to Berkeley physics books and Feynman Lectures

(00:28:03) Summer school experiences in Delhi; forming study groups

(00:30:32) Impact of summer schools on academic trajectory; mentorship from professors

(00:34:36) Gender dynamics in summer schools; supportive academic environment

(00:35:27) Opportunity to teach in last year of BSc; enthusiasm in science; building friendships

[37:32 to 38:41 – short break]

(00:38:44) Influence of humanities on scientific thinking; impact of Bertolt Brecht's Life of Galileo

(00:42:54) Standing first in university and importance of humanities in science education

(00:44:12) Responsibilities of scientists towards society and the role of scientific research; spectrum of science

(00:48:35) Need for interdisciplinary engagement between science and humanities

(00:53:12) Scientists actively engaging with public discourse (e.g., Ramakrishna Ramaswamy, Subir Sarkar, Rajaram Nityananda)

[00:53:46 - 00:53:49 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(00:56:54) Selection into IIT, choosing IIT Bombay

(01:00:58) Adjusting to an English-speaking environment

(01:02:23) Gender disparities in MSc classrooms; lack of experience in mixed-gender groups; but gender not having a huge impact in treatment of students

(01:05:27) Focus on academics, making a film with physics women hostellers

(01:07:56) Experiences at IIT Bombay; mentorship, friendships, and gender equality in classrooms

(01:13:44) Preparing for higher studies in the U.S.; scholarship from the American Association of University Women

(01:18:48) Challenges and friend's support in applying for GRE; securing funding for studies abroad

(01:22:12) Accepting an offer from Stony Brook University

(01:24:23) Reflections on mentorship differences, possibly based on gender

(01:26:36) Learning from S H Patil and theoretical physics applications

(01:37:56) Bunking the electronics lab exam with the entire class in IIT Bombay

(01:45:14) Securing financial assistance for travel through a Marathi newspaper fellowship

(01:53:12) Reflections on the difficulties of being a woman in science and overcoming obstacles

(01:55:18) Wrapping up

Rohini Godbole talks about attending the Science Talent Summer School in Kanpur, navigating unsafe workplaces. She emphasises the need for active participation by men and women to create a safe research environment.

She describes her travel and preparation for her PhD at Stony Brook University (SUNY – State University of New York), her experiences in adjusting to American culture, and being a part of the Indian student community. She talks about the November Revolution in Particle Physics in 1974, which is when she began her PhD, attending C N Yang's lectures and the J/ψ particle was discovered in Brookhaven National Laboratory.

She talks about her PhD journey, teaching assistantships, summer jobs, difficulty in finding the right PhD advisor, and the challenges of publishing papers. She also talks about new experiences and friendships, her introduction to feminism and decision to go back to India for her postdoc.

She talks about her sabbatical during which she went to CERN, and her decision to return to India for her postdoc. She talks about global politics and the Emergency in India during this period of her life, her involvement in the anti-nuclear movement and her opinions on Indian politics.

(00:00:00) Science Talent Summer School at IIT Kanpur; navigating gender dynamics in research; emphasis on creating a safe workplace on your own for women (00:12:01) Advice for women scientists about handling unsavoury workplace interactions or unsafe workplace environment (00:17:33) Preparing for PhD at Stony Brook; financial struggles and scholarships

(00:22:00) Travel hurdles on the way to the US; cultural adjustments

(00:25:58) Early PhD challenges and comprehensive exams

(00:29:11) Teaching assistantships; experience teaching "Physics for Poets"

(00:31:13) New experiences and ideas on education in Stony Brook; inclusion of foreign students in the physics department

(00:33:22) Cultural shocks in the US; adjusting to mixed-gender dorms

(00:37:38) Studying under C. N. Yang; significance of the J/ψ particle discovery

(00:40:41) Working hard for C.N. Yang's classes on particle physics. Deep engagement in particle physics; gauge theory and Standard Model discussions

(00:43:21) Support from the International Students Office for medical and social issues

(00:44:31) First summer research experience; writing first research paper

[00:45:45 - 00:46:20: Archivist's Note - break or interruption]

(00:46:21) Social life among Indian students; meal planning and sense of community

(00:52:45) Host family experience; Indian-American cultural connections

(00:56:35) Difficulty in finding a PhD advisor; switching from Daniel Freedman to Bill Weisberger and finally to Jack Smith

[01:03:40 - 01:07:16: Archivist's Note - break or interruption]

(01:07:16) Travelling to India for personal matter conflicting with academic work; missing

(01:11:46) CERN sabbatical; postdoctoral opportunities in high-energy physics

(01:12:12) Significant research contributions based on SLAC experiment; two-photon physics

(01:14:25) Higgs boson research in neutrino scattering; later relevance

(01:18:26) Cultural experiences outside academia; attending the Montreal Olympics

(01:21:53) Part-time jobs during PhD; exposure to feminist perspectives

(01:25:26) Learning from Helen Quinn's sacrifices and work as a female particle physicist

(01:29:35) Finalizing PhD and dealing with personal setbacks

(01:37:11) Declining a Netherlands postdoc; choosing to return to India

(01:42:33) Long-lasting friendships and collaborations from Stony Brook

(01:47:14) PhD Advisor's response on the interviewee's decision to go back to India for a postdoc.

(01:50:30) Challenges of staying connected with family in India

(01:55:54) Following Indian politics through Illustrated Weekly of India

[1:59:33 - 1:59:55: Archivist's Note: break or interruption]

(01:59:55) Political reflections on the Emergency

(02:03:34) Reflection on the hydrogen bomb in 1995, IISc's response; perspectives on India's nuclear policy and academic debates; being part of the anti-nuclear movement in TIFR

(02:07:57) Observations on student activism and protest culture – CAA protests; lack of space for debates

(02:09:42) Brief mentions of Science Congress meetings

(02:12:29) Differences in social life between Mumbai and Bangalore

(02:14:11) Advocacy for women in science

(02:15:35) Ending the session

Rohini Godbole talks about moving back to India, to TIFR for a postdoc. She discusses the lack of accommodation and infrastructure for women in the institute in the early days. She details the vibrant intellectual atmosphere at TIFR.

She revisits her early postdoctoral research and contributions to theoretical physics and interactions with experimental physics. She talks about the difficulties in not being able to attend an international conference despite being invited because of funding constraints.

She talks about a brief Research Associateship with the Royal Institute of Science and later transferring to Bombay University. She discusses her international collaborations with various researchers, living and working in Europe. She describes her role in mentoring, importance of gender-neutral environments and efforts in shaping high energy physics in India.

She concludes by reflecting on challenges of gender biases in academia and her satisfaction from her physics career.

Time-stamped section headings

(00:00:00) Early days at TIFR; influence of experimental high-energy physics group

(00:04:23) International collaborations; Stony Brook connections to European physics groups

(00:05:55) Research communication before the internet; access to preprints from SLAC, CERN, DESY

(00:10:29) Collaborations with Probir Roy, D.P. Roy, and K.V.L. Sharma

(00:14:36) First woman postdoc in TIFR Theory Group; lack of women's washrooms

(00:16:24) Intellectual vibrancy at TIFR; navigating leased computing systems

(00:20:11) Participation in social and scientific groups; anti-nuclear movements, film screenings

(00:23:31) Intense physics work – free Meson Seminars, Friday Seminars, Wednesday Colloquiums

(00:30:16) Long-term friendships and scientific collaborations at TIFR

(00:31:01) Research contributions; publications on structure functions and proton interactions

(00:40:21) Monte Carlo simulations; Higgs boson parity studies; work on top quark detection

(00:47:17) End of contract at TIFR; struggles with academic job market and missed conference opportunities

(00:53:33) Opportunity at IIT Kanpur through H.S. Mani; research associate position at TIFR

(00:58:37) Quantum mechanics lectures at Royal Institute of Science; accommodation issues

[01:02:09 - 01:02:31: Archivist's Note- Break or interruption]

(01:02:31) Bombay University experience; differences from TIFR intellectual environment, but supportive

(01:10:09) Continued collaborations with TIFR; organizing high-energy physics workshops

(01:16:10) Visits to CERN Theory Division, ICTP; interactions with UA1 experimental group

(01:19:16) Invitations to European conferences; senior postdoc position in Dortmund

(01:25:18) Research at DESY; resolved photon processes at HERA

(01:30:42) Collaborations on two-photon cross-section studies at LEP and Tristan

(01:32:05) Marriage in Germany; collaborations with Giulia Pancheri from Frascati National Labs

[01:32:33 - 01:32:46 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(01:35:46) Attending international conferences; dealing with grief of losing father

(01:39:27) Early contributions to high-energy physics phenomenology in India

(01:43:08) Establishing SERC Schools in Theoretical High Energy Physics

(01:46:13) Gender-neutral mentoring and preparing for advanced physics lectures

(01:48:06) Plenary talks at DAE Symposium; challenges in national recognition; exploring Mysore

(01:56:27) Gender biases in science; perseverance despite setbacks; importance of support during early stages in science

(02:02:52) International conference in Monterey; reflections on scientific integrity

(02:06:11) Scientific contributions as long-term work; satisfaction in physics career

(02:07:52) Ending the session

In this interview, Rohini Godbole discusses the importance of appreciation and encouragement from peers and mentors for professional growth. She goes into details of her work and collaborations in the University of Dortmund, involvement in collider physics. She recollects meeting her husband, the challenges of navigating marriage, personal and professional life in academia. She delves into discussing the beginnings of her interests in supersymmetry and close contact with experimental physics. Godbole also talks about the continuity in the different areas of her work, her collaborators, and international travels for work. She also discusses her various roles, positions and being a member in different organisations. In addition to that, she mentions the conferences she organised and presented in, alone and with her collaborators. She talks about how her life streamlined to mostly doing physics in IISc, as compared to her life in Bombay where she was involved in more cultural and social activities. Godbole discusses the disparity in research funding in different institutes in the country, the differences in teaching students University of Bombay and IISc.

(00:00:00) Importance of appreciation of efforts from scientific circles in professional growth. Blurring of personal, social and professional life as a scientist. Family and friends' support

(00:04:37) Reduction in involvement in social causes and cultural events upon moving to Bombay University [Archivist's note: it is now University of Mumbai]. Difficulty in finding accommodation for 3 years as a young woman scientist

(00:07:49) Not being stressed about lack of accommodation as work was rewarding. Importance of being respected and recognized in making one confident

(00:12:22) Importance of support like housing in doing good science (00:13:15) Abbas A. Rangwala's encouragement in Goldbole's scientific career; push for University of Dortmund

(00:15:34) Work done during two years at University of Dortmund – Nucleon structure functions, Quantum Chromodynamics, Higgs Boson and Higgs Decays. Involvement in CERN super collider, and the future phenomenology of e-p collider HERA at DESY, Germany [Archivist's note: CERN- European Organization for Nuclear Research, HERA- Hadron–Electron Ring Accelerator. DESY- Deutsches Elektronen-Synchrotron]

(00:18:16) International networks, meetings, workshops: Meetings at DESY, US Snowmass Meetings. University of Wisconsin, Madison's pheno Workshops

[Archivist's note- pheno refers to phenomenology]

(00:19:27) Scientifically significant years: research focus in Dortmund, collaborations. Associateship in The Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics (ICTP), work on supersymmetry, string theory, and working with various scientists there (00:26:41) Meeting her husband – Marek Nowakowski at Dortmund, getting married, navigating personal life in academia. Enjoying teaching at University of Bombay (00:29:48) Being married to a person in the same in academia. Discussions on marriage, parents accepting relationship. Learning about immigrant Polish community in Germany because of her marriage (00:35:52) Navigating long-distance marriage and scientific careers (00:40:25) Differences between Central Institutes and Universities. Intermingling of professional and social life. Moving from University of Bombay to Indian Institute of Science. Flexibility in Bombay

(00:43:50) Difficulty in finding positions in the same city or institute as a married couple. Separation and divorce. Women juggling marriage and science, hurdles faced by scientist-couples [00:49:57-00:50:04 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(00:53:46) Research in Frascati; collaborations with Giulia Pancheri and Probir Roy

[Archivist's note: PETRA – Positron-Electron Tandem Ring Accelerator located at DESY Mark II Detector was an experimental detector used at the SLAC Linear Collider at Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC) in California, USA LEP – Large Electron–Positron Collider, Geneva]

(00:56:58) Steven Weinberg's influential paper on supersymmetry. Learning about supersymmetry and supergravity in Stony Brook, USA from Peter van Nieuwenhuizen, Daniel Z. Freedman.

(00:58:44) Godbole working on supersymmetry with Probir Roy in Austin. Godbole's first paper on supersymmetry with Xerxes Tata, Manuel Drees, Amitabh Datta.

(01:02:32) Focus of work in IISc. Work with Manuel Drees and D. P. Roy; collider designs

(01:08:01) Role in Linear Collider Advisory Committee and international workshops

(01:10:49) Traveling in summers after divorce to CERN; collaborative projects with CEFIPRA; disparities in research funding

[Archivist's Note: CEFIPRA – Indo-French Centre for the Promotion of Advanced Research, also called IFCPAR]

[01:18:17-01:19:57 - Archivist's Note - break or interruption]

(01:19:58) CEFIPRA sowed seeds of many interactive and collaborative projects with France. Resources in TIFR, Bombay University and IISc. Linear Collider workshops

(01:21:59) Long term collaboration with scientists Genevieve Belangér, Fawzi Boudjema and Abdelhak Djouadi. Indo-French project with Genevieve Belangér, with Manimala Mitra as the Principal Investigator (01:24:02) Being a member of the Commission of High Energy Physics, feeling like arriving at the global scene, contributing to CERN by writing a strategy report with Georg Weiglein and Frank Simon (01:27:44) NSF-funded collaborations with Indian and US physicists on high-energy phenomenology

(1:32:48) Teaching experiences: Differences between Bombay University and IISc students; ease in bonding with students at IISc (1:35:52) Cycling in and around IISc and Malleshwaram market – for work and chores (1:37:12) Teaching and bonding with students helped get on with life amid the strained marriage

(1:41:04) Brief mention of involvement with Indian Academy of Sciences' panel on Women in Science.

(00:00:00) Shobhana Narasimhan talks about her journey which began in Mumbai, where her father, the mathematician M.S. Narasimhan, worked at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research. They first lived near the Colaba Post Office before moving to the TIFR Campus in Navy Nagar. She attended the Convent of Jesus and Mary, also known as Fort Convent. She joined St Xavier's College for her 11th and 12th and BSc studies. She then moved to the US for a PhD, followed by two post docs – one in the US and the other in Germany. Thereafter, she moved to her present position in Bangalore.

(00:02:12) Experience at school Narasimhan points out that physics was not her favourite subject in school. She says her physics teacher was probably the one she disliked the most. The teacher's strictness led to her developing a phobia of physics. At some point a new teacher joined, but he wasn't inspiring either. In fact, after her ICSE, she wanted to avoid studying physics even though she was eager to pursue science. However, Narasimhan goes on to mention that her overall school experience was a positive one. It was a girls' school and they were never ever made to feel that being female brought certain constraints. Everyone was encouraged to be intellectually active and strong. The math teacher, Mrs Krishnan, was very supportive. The library was excellent and the librarian Mrs Chari would always encourage a lot of reading. She waived the rule of borrowing one book a week and Narasimhan was allowed to borrow as many books as she wanted. She also points out, especially in the present context, the school encouraged a liberal atmosphere.

(00:06.36) Growing up within the TIFR campus Narasimhan first calls it an idyllic childhood. However, when she looks back it seems a very weird environment to be growing up in because of its homogeneity. And the constant expectation of being academically brilliant. She wanted to study science and for her it was a fantastic place – there was enormous positive reinforcement from the community. She had a friends group of 15-20 people and nearly all of them went on to do PhDs in science. So a large number of scientists have emerged out of that group. And very interestingly there have been many more female scientists than male scientists. She adds that for someone who wasn't academically inclined it must have been a rather difficult place to grow up in. She remembers how one friend's ambition of becoming an air-hostess was considered scandalous. Even the thought of doing medicine or engineering was considered not good enough.

(00:11.10) Exposure to other cultures while growing up As her father travelled for work, Narasimhan spent extended periods in Princeton, England and Paris while growing up. She thinks this is typical of those children who grow up in TIFR – and it plays a big role in their cultural development. It makes one comfortable with different cultures.

(00:12.10) Encouragement at home It was an encouraging and supportive environment. Narasimhan's mother, at some point, did not believe she was suitable to do research. Her father was keen that she do science. However, the key was that she was given total freedom to do whatever she wanted. Since she was interested in physics, her father would buy her all the physics books she wanted. She also had access to the TIFR library. Here she also talks about her brother. Since he wasn't academically oriented, she believes TIFR was not such a nurturing environment for him to grow up in.

(00:13.58) Excellent teachers at St Xavier's College Narasimhan thinks it was St Xavier's College that reinstated her love for physics. There were some excellent teachers. She mentions Jehangir Mistry, R.V. Kamath, Subir Paranjpe. She talks about the experience of Subir Paranjpe, which made a huge impression on her. Paranjpe had a PhD in Physics from the University of Chicago and had postdoctoral position in TIFR. He then fell into a bureaucratic mess, where even though he had a PhD in physics he didn't have a Masters degree and was not allowed to teach at the bachelor's level. He taught quantum mechanics at the 11-12th level and was brilliant. As wouldn't stick to the syllabus strictly, many students complained and he was eventually dismissed.

(00:16.25) Gender discrimination at St Xavier's College Narasimhan points out that in her 11-12th class, there were 75 students with only 4 girls. She felt the boys ostracised her because she topped the class. Much later when she was leaving after finishing her BSc, some of them apologised. She didn't realise then that gender was an issue and the reason people were not talking to her was because she was a well-performing girl. Narasimhan says she had a miserable time socially during those years. However, while doing her BSc she was much happier. The gender balance had improved, people were less uptight about marks. She feels she got a liberal arts education at Xavier's even though she was studying physics, as she had the opportunity to take courses in subjects like philosophy, film appreciation, music, journalism. She was also involved in a lot of writing at that time. Xavier's made an exception for her when they allowed her to study physics, math and geology, which wasn't otherwise an option. In those days, in the 1980's it was very unusual for people to be so liberal. So she says she would always be grateful to the college.

(00:20.28) Indian Institute of Technology and the issue of gender Narasimhan says the gender imbalance in IIT was a huge issue. The atmosphere was regressive. It was uncommon for men and women to socialize freely. It was a bizarre society from an anthropological point of view. There were five per cent women and therefore very visible. The masses had weird ideas about women – women can't do better than men in anything that is a true test of intellect. She did not suffer too much as the years at Xavier's had instilled social self-confidence. She was active in extra-curricular activities – but was witness to a lot of younger girl students really suffer. It was in IIT that her feminist ideas got massively strengthened because of what she saw around her.

(00:22.54) Working in Harvard Narasimhan says when she went to Harvard University, she wanted to study either high energy physics or astrophysics. However, she changed her mind when she started working with David Vanderbilt. There were many great physicists at Harvard around that time. Steven Weinberg had just left but he would visit often. Several Nobel Prize winners including Sheldon Glashow, Carlo Rubbia were there. The big names in condensed matter physics were Bert Halperin, David Nelson, Daniel Fisher, Cumrun Vafa. She decided to change her subject as she found the high energy physicists very arrogant. Some of them would start their classes by saying, 'I know this class will be at a high level and all of you won't be able to follow me. But I am not going to make any allowances whatsoever.' This made her think she would not be able to survive in such an atmosphere. To her, the condensed matter physicists seemed less intimidating. Later, she was glad she chose condensed matter physics, even for scientific reasons.

(00:26.30) Her father's advice Narasimhan says she would write long letters to her father expressing her anguish over whether physics was worth doing. He would always advise her to forget about it as he had no sympathy for this kind of agonising attitude. He played a big role in her going to Harvard. She had applied to the slightly less good universities in the US. When she told her father, he advised her to also apply to all the top schools. He said if, 'you are going to go abroad, you should try to go to the best. Otherwise you might as well stay in India.' Just to keep him happy she applied to these places and got into many of them.

(00:28.22) Time at Harvard, working under David Vanderbilt Narasimhan feels her time at Harvard was stressful. She thinks it didn't have a friendly or nurturing atmosphere. Her advisor David Vanderbilt was a nice person, but also very quiet. He was very brilliant and therefore often made her feel worse in some ways. She would try to crack a problem for days and then go to him. He would just look at it, think quietly and give her the answer. Narasimhan says Harvard also had a big gender imbalance. She says the general message that was given was that one wasn't good enough. She talks about seminars where famous people would give lectures and they would just be attacked by the faculty members and torn to shreds. It was as if they had to defend every single statement. The good thing that happened was that after that no audience looked as threatening. However, she made very good friends, and intellectually it was a very interesting place. She started a group for women in science at Harvard. Took courses in history of science, journalism.

(00:32.48) Work done for PhD Narasimhan's recalls the title of her theses as 'Anharmonic self-energies of phonons, silicon.' She goes on to explain the science. Silicon is the material that is crucial for the semi-conductor industry. She studied the vibrations in silicon, which are important as in room temperature or any finite temperature the silicon atom starts vibrating and that influences its properties a lot. People initially thought that they vibrate like springs i.e. the interaction between the atoms is like a spring. But if one considers that certain things like thermal expansion cannot happen. Therefore, the interactions have to be different in nature – these are called 'anharmonic effects.' Narasimhan studies these effects and did first principle calculations and density functional theory. Also with David Vanderbilt she worked on how the atoms are arranged on the surface of gold. She studied the herring bone reconstruction.

(00:35.02) Work at Brookhaven lab The atmosphere at Brookhaven Lab was relaxed and friendly. At Brookhaven she worked on alloys and why they sometimes have complicated structures. She mentions here that over the course of her career she has asked a lot of different questions often motivated by experiments. But the basic techniques used to answer them are similar.

(00:36.20) Berlin The physics group at Berlin had a tense atmosphere. This was in the early 90's, the Berlin Wall had just come down, so the city was throbbing with excitement and vibrancy. Narasimhan says she lived near the centre of the city and explored it thoroughly.

(00:37.43) Decision to return to India Narasimhan says, mainly inspired by her father, she always knew she would come back to India. He was part of the first generation post-independence scientists who were very influenced by ideas of patriotism and building a new country. He had strong ideas about the use of science as a tool for development. These made a huge impact on her. She says that though she feels very comfortable abroad she has always felt that this is her country and this is where she belongs.

(00:39.24) Joining JNCASR Narasimhan says the first few years at JNCASR were not easy. People didn't go out of their way to be helpful. She was not well-versed to how the Indian scientific establishment worked. People were not particularly friendly and were not eager to collaborate. She took a few years to find her feet. In retrospect, she feels the behaviour she received was probably effects of sexism and gender perhaps played a huge role.

(00:41.54) Her most important contributions Narasimhan explains computational nano science, which is designing nano materials on the computer. She talks about her interest in designing material that can be catalyst, can be magnets, can be molecular machines. Sometimes the prediction comes first, then an experiment confirms it. However, sometimes the experiment is done first and then they explain it. She says what excites her most is when the prediction is made first. For her, this proves the power of theoretical physics. While talking about her most important contributions, she mentions two works. She goes on to explain them. In the first, she talks about what happens when a gold nano particle is deposited on an oxide surface. Usually it clumps up like a drop. However, there are reasons to believe that for many applications, instead of it being round it should be flat. Narasimhan and her students predicted that by introducing some impurity atoms in the substrate, gold nano particle does go flat. Then experimentalists in Germany ran the experiment and showed that it worked. In the second project, she talks about alloys. Not all material mix together to form alloys. E.g. Iron and gold don't mix together. Narasimhan and her students predicted worked with collaborators in France showed that iron and gold deposited on ruthenium forms an alloy. At this point she mentions that at present she has four students, all of whom happen to be male. She says that the reason she doesn't have any female students now is because many of them have had to quit due to various personal constraints. She comments on how female students are even today struggling to stay in science even if they want to.

(00:48.27) Member of the working group for women at IUPAP and organising workshops for women at ICTP Narasimhan talks about the working group for women at IUPAP where they have representatives from various countries spread around the world. They survey the situation of women in physics. They also organise an international conference for women in physics every three years. She had been attending these conferences, initially as a delegate from India and then as member of the working group. At one of these conferences, she heard a woman from Kenya speak about how she became pregnant and applied for maternity leave, the department responded by firing her. She was very upset and was contemplating giving up physics. Another woman stood up in the audience and shouted, 'Sister, don't give up, fight, we will support you.' Other women joined in. This was the moment that Narasimhan decided she needed to do more to help women in physics. She goes on to talk about Elizabeth Simmons, her junior and fellow organiser of the women in physics group at Harvard. Simmons and Narasimhan together decided to organise the ICTP workshops. These workshops are the first of their kind held at ICTP. They conduct drama therapy sessions, sessions on how combine career and family, sessions on how to write scientific papers. They have been extremely successful – women from 80 countries have participated so far. Many women have said it has literally transformed their lives. Narasimhan feels very proud of them. They are held every two years in Trieste and in between at the new ICTP in Rwanda. It could happen only once before the pandemic. Similar efforts are also being made at ICTP Argentina. [00:56:02 - 00:58:31 - Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(00:58.47) Working on committees set up by the government of India Narasimhan talks about the work she has been doing on the difference between working for committees for women in science in developed and developing worlds. She thinks they have different patterns and where the real problem seems to be different. She feels that developed countries have low participation of women in science all through. So already at school level they have small numbers of women doing science. Whereas in developing countries there is a high number of women doing science even up to the PhD level and then there is a huge drop. She feels, therefore, that the initiatives taken at the government level have to be different. The Indian government is aware of that and has been trying to do different things.

(00:58.35) Level of research in computational nanoscience in India Narasimhan ends by talking about the level of research in her area in India compared to the rest of the world. She feels China is well ahead mainly because they have systematically put money into it. Fifteen years ago there was hardly anybody in China and she was one of those who was invited to China to train young Chinese students to work in this field. Now there are a lot of Chinese working in the field. She feels India has also come up a lot. But this hasn't happened because of a directed programme. It has evolved by itself.

A N Yellappa Reddy is a forester and environmentalist. He was born in 1937, to an agriculturist family in the village of Adugodi, Bangalore. He earned a degree in agricultural sciences from Coimbatore Agriculture College in 1960, and a postgraduate degree in soil science. He served as the Principal Conservator of Forests (PCCF) in Karnataka and held several key positions in the Indian Forest Service. Reddy worked in various capacities, contributing to India's forest conservation, wildlife protection, and environmental sustainability. He was involved in implementing several significant conservation projects, particularly in the Western Ghats, and contributed to the region's biodiversity protection.

Reddy has also been recognized by several environmental forums for his leadership in conservation and his role in promoting environmental awareness. After retiring, he worked as an environmental consultant and advisor, focusing on conservation issues and environmental policies. He continues to advocate for better ecological consciousness, forest preservation, and management of forest resources and protected areas.

Reddy highlights the significance of interconnectedness with nature and exposure to traditional farming techniques through his childhood experiences in Adugodi. He discusses the need for greater emphasis on ecological education. He describes his academic journey, including his training as an Indian forester, reflecting on the lack of traditional knowledge in forest management curriculum. Discussing his involvement in water management and biodiversity preservation, he emphasizes the need for lifelong learning in forestry. Reddy emphasizes the importance of crediting and recognizing underrepresented agents in conservation and discusses ethical leadership, prioritizing subordinates' needs and concerns, and being transparent and accountable. (00:00:36) Growing up in Adugodi, occupation and daily life of family members, initial hands-on knowledge about agriculture, exposure to a holistic understanding of farming practices

(00:11:59) Importance of ecological education, academic journey, training as a forester, reflections on pre-modern ecological consciousness in India

(00:23:11) Ignorance of non-western ecological education, mythological significance of co-existence with nature, non-extractive philosophy of nature, interest in NTFPs

(00:30:35) Surveying forest resources in the Western Ghats, the importance of ethics in public service, daily routine in the forests, significance of determined observation and yearning

(00:40:26) Addressing socio-ecological stress in the Western Ghats, the importance of giving credit to others and working collaboratively in conservation, concerns of forest control and management

(00:52:03) Importance of fieldwork in forest management, advantages of forest conservation as a public service, significance of moral strength from family and companions

Tara Gandhi talks about her childhood, her beginnings in conservation, and her work on Sálim Ali's writings and interviews. She discusses her application for a Master's in field ornithology with BNHS after her undergraduate and the reasons for the rejection. She applied for the same Master's program 15 years later and this time she was accepted for the position, she reflects. She elaborates on her research during the Master's course, specifying the challenges she faced, the skills she learned, and the mentorship she received from Sálim Ali.

She discusses conservation projects with INTACH, WWF, Commonwealth Secretariat, and WTI. She notes how these projects created a growing awareness of the complexities of environmental issues and allowed her to travel to regions in India and globally to work on conservation from different perspectives. She elaborates on when WTI was founded and her involvement as a founding trustee.

She elaborates on how she began working on compiling a book of Sálim Ali's interviews and essays. She recalls her experiences searching through libraries and the material sent over by people who once knew Sálim Ali. She also speaks about her experience working with MSSRF which led to her writing a book on the interaction between wild animals and our agricultural practices.

(00:00:00) Family history, education from school to an undergraduate degree in microbiology and zoology

(00:04:20) Work experience at a pharmaceutical research organisation, applying to BNHS for a Master's in field ornithology, and rejection from the program

(00:10:30) Trip to Europe for a microbiology course and life during early marriage and reapplication for Master's in field ornithology from BNHS

(00:16:49) Master's research work at Guindy National Park, experiences doing research with limited guidance

(00:22:32) Fieldwork and research techniques learned during master's research and thesis completion for master's degree in field ornithology

(00:29:44) Documentation work with the Natural Heritage Division, INTACH, growing understanding of the environmental movement

(00:34:08) Career progression in environmental conservation, and working for SPWD and WWF, Delhi

(00:39:08) Move to Europe, work for the Biological Diversity and Genetic Resources Department in the Science Department of the Commonwealth Secretariat, UK

(00:43:43) South Africa and volunteering with the birding group at Transvaal Museum, all-India surveying national parks project with IIPA with Shekhar Singh, and BCPP

[Archivist's note: Gandhi refers to the Transvaal Museum in South Africa. The museum is today called the Ditsong National Museum of Natural History.]

(00:55:20) Founding and acting as founding trustee of WTI, with emphasis on rapid response to crises, move to Sri Lanka

(01:00:03) Move to Norway, the beginnings of collecting Sálim Ali's writings and scientific research

(01:06:00) Balancing collecting Sálim Ali's writing and family commitments, publishing the book in 2007

(01:11:45) Conservation projects as a trustee of WTI, joining MSSRF, and agricultural education in rural India through the foundation

(01:16:46) Birds and wild animals impacting agriculture, with conflicting views on control methods, and research for the Birds, Wildlife and Agriculture book

(01:22:56) Nature writing, conservation, and the importance of observation

(0:00) Parents, childhood, and college years Subramaniam Ananthakrishnan was born in Tamil Nadu. He mentions his ancestral family's migration to Trivandrum. His father studied at Banaras Hindu University and worked for the Government of India as an engineer. He was brought up in erstwhile Tranvancore state and later Tamil Nadu and he went to Calcutta for his college education, first at St Xavier's College, then at Presidency College, and his Master's at the Institute of Radio Physics and Electronics. He recounts how he got the Jagadish Bose National Talent Scholarship and a medal from Jawaharlal Nehru in the presence of Indira Gandhi.

Ananthakrishnan recounts that his university professors encouraged him to apply to TIFR as Govind Swarup had begun a radio astronomy group there. He speaks about how he received the 'Visiting membership' to study at TIFR. He mentions two other friends from Calcutta who also got selected for TIFR, including one who later went to work in nuclear physics in the US and another who became a dean at IIT Bombay.

(06:10) Time at TIFR and building Ooty Radio Telescope in the 1970s. Ananthakrishnan joined TIFR in 1966 and was mentored by NVG Sarma and MN Joshi (both of whom worked with Govind Swarup in Delhi), who recommended to Ananthakrishnan that he join the team building the Ooty Radio Telescope and help in developing the electronics for the multi-Ooty radio telescope. He recounts that they made the electronics in 2 to 3 years in a lab at TIFR.

They took their first recording with the telescope in 1970. He recounts the group dynamics among the scientists and students during the building of ORT. He mentions that the team also built the dipole array system.

In 1971, a major accident occurred at the telescope due to a mechanical failure, causing one part of the telescope to collapse and twist. He, Balasubramanian, and Swarup repaired the telescope and got it working again after two years, by 1973 September. He recounts the uniqueness of the ORT project and the work that has been done using the ORT.

(15:38) Proposal of the Giant Equatorial Radio Telescope. Ananthakrishnan discusses Swarup's new project ideas post ORT. Swarup wanted to extend the ORT with further small cylindrical parabolic cylinders to increase the collecting area of the main telescope. This was called the Ooty Synthesis Radio Telescope (OSRT).

The telescope was receiving only a fixed frequency of 326.5 megahertz and a little bit of adjacent bands, and the main research area was lunar occultation and interplanetary scintillation and Pulsars.

Swarup proposed building a 2-kilometer-long radio telescope on the equator to be the largest ever built, which Swarup called the Giant Equatorial Radio Telescope (GERT).

He recounts why Ooty was chosen as the site to build the radio telescope.

A proposal was made to build the GERT telescope in Kenya or Indonesia, but it didn't work out due to various reasons. Ananthakrishnan recounts why the idea of the GERT was difficult, due to logistics and as well as due to the death of the then-President of Kenya, Jomo Kenyatta. They had to give up on the project by 1982.

After the building of the ORT, Ananthakrishnan stayed back to operate the telescope and later went for a postdoctoral fellowship from 1977 to 1979.

(00:22:53) Conceiving of the Giant Metrewave Radio Telescope (GMRT)

He recounts that there was a need for a bigger telescope. He mentions his idea to create several telescopes in different geographical locations and use a method called Very Long Baseline Interferometry for a new telescope. Another colleague, Durga Bagri proposed the idea of a Large Metrewave Array. Both ideas were deemed unfeasible.

Swarup comes up with the idea of a "poor man's Very Large Array". Ananthakrishnan recounts that this idea was proposed on the day after a New Year's Eve party where the members of the Ooty radio telescope were present. This idea was converted into a proposal and sent to the TIFR director and then to the Atomic Energy Commission. After long discussions and consultations with radio astronomers at other institutes, the project was deemed feasible. Ananthakrishnan recounts the then director of the AEC asking Swarup, who was now 58, who would lead the project in case of his absence. Swarup said that the scientists who built ORT would also work on this new radio telescope.

(00:29:30) Finding a location for the GMRT

Ananthakrishnan discusses challenges in finding suitable locations for low-frequency telescopes due to cost constraints and a nationalistic approach. He speaks about the decision to build a low-frequency radio telescope as opposed to a high-frequency radio telescope. Equipment to build a low-frequency telescope would cost less. The team first considered near North Bangalore where the Gauribidanur radio telescope was present. But, physicists from the ionospheric physics community raised several concerns about the site. Ananthakrishnan recounts that they searched for a site across several states in India. They initially considered a site near Indore as AEC had the Center of Advance Technology, Indore, and they could offer land. However, there were scientific constraints with the land. The area also lacked talent and lack of technological development for a telescope. A town near Indore named Mhow (Military Headquarters of War) had communications equipment that created a lot of radio frequency interference. He mentions that Prof Pramesh Rao suggested north of Pune as a possibility. Ananthakrishnan used the Survey of India maps to survey the sites, including the Pune location. He mentions that there is a Vikram Earth Station near Narayangoan which was a possibility and another site south of Pune near Dhondh. They identified the area around Narayangaon. He mentions that the engineers at the Vikram Earth Station were willing to provide support.

(00:39: 57) Acquiring land in Pune for GMRT He mentions that there is a Vikram Earth Station near Narayangoan which was a possibility and another site south of Pune near Dhondh. They identified the area around Narangaon. He mentions that the engineers at the Vikram Earth Station were willing to provide support. He mentions that they met the Collector and Commissioner of Pune and explained the project. Mr. Rane, the then Commissioner of Pune, was very supportive. Ananthakrishnan describes the land where they decided to build the GMRT.

Between 1985 and 1987, they began to acquire the land. Ananthakrishnan spoke to the village residents, many of whom were Project Affected People (PAP) who were moved there from other dam projects. Farmers on that land were required to donate their land. Ananthakrishnan recounts that an engineer, N V Nagarathinam, helped a lot in acquiring the sites.

(00:45:34-00:45:49) Interruption

(00:45:50) Resume

As Ananthakrishnan worked to acquire land, the proposal for the project went to the Government of India for approval. (00:46:27) The design of the telescopes for GMRT 1985, the International Astronomical Union held a congress in New Delhi. Here, Ananthakrishnan along with Swarup and other colleagues set up a meeting with international radio astronomers to discuss GMRT. They advised against building parabolic cylinders and instead built parabolic dishes. Parabolic dishes are more expensive to build. Govind proposed using parabolic arms and connecting them with turn buckles to create a dish. This allowed the dish to be low-cost and easy to assemble. They built a prototype GMRT dish in Ooty. Ananthakrishnan recalls additional challenges with mounting the dish and constructing the antennae. The brainstorming happened in Bangalore, where some of the team had shifted.

(00:54:34) Cost and team of GMRT

The Tata Consulting Engineers were involved both in building the ORT and GMRT, as well as scientists from the ORT team. Ananthakrishnan was in charge of acquiring land and was the head of the electronics and opines why he became head. He was the project scientist for 10 years, from 1988 to 1998. The cost increased from when the project was first proposed to when it was finally executed in 1995. The price increase was due to oil embargoes and conflict in the Middle East. Ananthakrishnan estimates that the cost was 60 crores by 1995. The group of engineers and admin shifted from Ooty and Bangalore to Pune. Only the skeletal group remained in Ooty. This led to the creation of NCRA, while NCBS was being created.

(00:59:31) Reasons for pursuing physics in college

Ananthakrishnan discusses his interest in physics through experiments, despite his initial interest in chemistry. He recounts difficulty remembering organic formulas contributing to his decision. He went to Presidency College since it was the best college. His decision to pursue radio science and electronics was informed by a group of friends in college and their influence on his decision to pursue radio astronomy Physics. He recounts that they collectively decided to join the radio physics department at Calcutta University. He recounts finding astronomy fascinating since childhood and his father teaching him the constellations. Ananthakrishnan mentions his work as a radio astronomer and says that he prefers to be called a radio scientist since his work has also included electronics and engineering. Ananthakrishnan reflects on his MTech degree and its usefulness in his work as well as the importance of a degree in one's career. (01:10:30 ) The development and challenges of the Giant Metre Wave Radio Telescope (GMRT). Ananthakrishnan reflects on the challenges of building GMRT. He recounts Swarup's concern about the completion of the project. By 1994, Ananthakrishnan felt more confident that the project could be completed as many of the electronics components had been successfully built. For the project, engineers and technical staff were hired for the GMRT project, with a focus on recruitment from across India. There were two challenges that Ananthakrishnan recounted. The antennas had to work simultaneously, and operations had to be synchronized. And the correlator needed to be working. By 2000, the GMRT team had made significant progress in observing and studying various astrophysical sources, including galaxies, quasars, and pulsars. Ananthakrishnan reflects on the teamwork and synergy between team members as a key component for GMRT's success. He opines the conditions required for projects such as GMRT to be a success such as freedom, which he says TIFR offers to its scientists.

(1:21:47) Running the GMRT He speaks about the branded identity of GMRT. GMRT is now involved in new projects like the Square Kilometre Array, which he is a part of. Ananthakrishnan highlights India's growth in radio astronomy, from unknown to eminence. He mentions the projects he has been involved in, including a 3.6-meter telescope and a 21-meter Cherenkov experiment telescope, and helped troubleshoot issues with a stratospheric tropospheric radar.

(01:29:13) Indigenous scientific instrument development in India. Ananthakrishnan highlights the benefits of in-house facility development for long-term efficiency and control. He advocates for more large-scale science projects in India to develop domestic competence in technology and assembly. Gives complete control over instruments. Need more large-scale projects in India to develop competence.

Scientists and engineers in GMRT worked together, but as the project grew, they had to divide responsibilities more clearly for efficient collaboration. (1:34:05) Team structure and synergy in a large telescope project.

The group building the ORT was small and the scientists were also engineers, so control was in the scientist's hands, reflects Ananthakrishnan. He contrasts the ORT team structure with that of GMRT, which was a large project. He asserts that for a large project such as GMRT to be successful, it requires the scientists to have a good understanding of engineers, as well as clearly defined roles. GMRT had the advantage of a group of engineers from the TIFR and Tata Consulting Engineers who had worked on ORT and thus had a good relationship with one another.

He recounts that the Tata Consulting Engineers were also involved in building the ARVI dish under the guidance of Swarup around 1966. Design engineer Suresh Tapde, who worked later on GMRT also worked on the ARVI project in 1967. (01:43:06) ORT accident, GERT, and division of research groups. Ananthakrishnan recounts the ORT accident. The group found out late in the night. The accident occurred due to a differential motion between parts of the telescope. He explains that the accident might have been a result of overuse of the telescope without time for maintenance. He and V Balasubramanian went up that night and took precautionary measures. He then describes shutting down the GERT program. He recounts an argument with Swarup and says that the group did not wish to colonize other countries with radio astronomy and wished to do a project within India. Ananthakrishnan recounts that TIFR was not in favour of partitioning TIFR. Swarup argued that the GMRT group was too large to be controlled from the Mumbai TIFR campus. TIFR was concerned about inbreeding and the benefits of a large institution under one umbrella.

(01:55:46) TIFR radio astronomy group during and after ORT, formation of NCRA

Between 1968 and 1969, most of the TIFR radio astronomy group moved to Ooty. Swarup shifted to Ooty in 1974. The Ooty group had become self-sufficient. He mentions V R Venugopal and how Venugopal was well-connected in Ooty which made it easy for the group to get work done.

Ananthakrishnan recounts an interaction with a group of parliamentarians, three of whom were Jyoti Basu, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, and Piloo Mody. The parliamentarians had come to see the telescope.

Ananthakrishnan was the only member of the ORT group's scientists who was transferred to Pune at the behest of Swarup. His children did part of their education in Pune. He recounts how NCRA and IUCAA were given the land by the Vice Chancellor of Pune University. IUCAA became a reality due to Prof. Yash Pal who was the UGC chairman at the time.

In 1989, with the housing society complete within 13 months, many more members moved to Pune from Ooty, Bangalore, and Bombay. He mentions part of the group of scientists who worked on ORT moved back to Bombay after the completion of ORT.

[2:01:15 - 2:01:55 – Restricted Access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(02:08:13) On the Electronics Department at Pune University Prof Kholaskar invited Ananthakrishnan to join the electronic science department at Pune University as an Adjunct Professor, teaching and conducting research there for 13 years. The department nominated Ananthakrishnan to the Raja Ramanna Research Fellowship, and he was elected to various science academies in the 1994-2004 period. He then became an INSA senior scientist. Since 2017, he has been an INSA honorary scientist, for which he got a grant to run contingencies in the department for 5 years. Ananthakrishnan began a communication lab in the Electronic department in 2008 and received 70 lakhs from ISRO for this. He recounts the benefits of the lab in the department.

(02:17:10) Space antenna and student projects.

In 2010, he had a collaboration with Sweden. He talks about the Swedish proposal to Ananthakrishnan to put antennas on the moon, and the proposal's outcome. He talks about the search for funds for the antennas' prototyping and the project's progress. He mentions that students carried out the project.

He also mentions a proposal to the Indian Oceanographic Expedition to put the antenna payload in the Arctic to collect data in the Arctic night.

V Balasubramanian talks about being born in Tiruchirappalli (Trichy) and having had a childhood shaped by his father's railway job, requiring frequent relocations across South India. His early education spanned multiple schools, transitioning from Tamil to Malayalam medium. Influenced by his maternal grandfather, an electrical engineer, and his uncle, he developed a deep interest in physics. His academic journey led him to Government Victoria College, Palghat, where he pursued physics before joining the Atomic Energy Establishment, Trombay [now Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC)].

He shares that his career took shape at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) under Govind Swarup, where he played a crucial role in constructing the Ooty Radio Telescope (ORT). He details the technical innovations and challenges of building the 540-meter-long telescope, which became instrumental in pulsar studies and interplanetary scintillation research. Balasubramanian also talks about focussing on low-loss transmission lines, contributing to the development of the Giant Metrewave Radio Telescope (GMRT), and digital processing.

He emphasises different collaborations over the years and the importance of indigenous technological development. Reflecting on his career, he expresses pride in his team's ability to overcome financial and technical limitations, highlighting their impact on global astronomy.

He also offers advice to aspiring radio astronomers, and discusses post-retirement interests in reading and history.

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:00:27) Early life and education

(00:13:29) Hobbies growing up

(00:16:02) Developing an interest in physics and joining Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR)

(00:20:40) Identification of 3C 273 quasar, the Ooty Radio Telescope (ORT) and lunar occultation

(00:26:43) Training school of the Atomic Energy Establishment, Trombay [later called Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC)] and joining the radio astronomy group at TIFR

(00:33:45) Building the ORT

(00:42:13) Discoveries, collaborations and V. Balasubramanian and others' roles

(00:46:37) Imports required and the development of domestic manufacturing capabilities

(00:54:02) Evolution of ORT and structural failure in 1971

(00:59:34) Comparison of ORT to other telescopes

(01:01:19) Technological advancements and collaborations with other institutes

(01:09:58) Rebuilding and improving ORT and discoveries made using ORT

(01:16:59) Evolution and building of Giant Metrewave Radio Telescope (GMRT)

(01:26:59) Very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) and coming up with ideas in informal settings

(01:32:36) Challenges and solutions during construction and development of ORT: "teething troubles"

(01:43:44) Need for different expertise and specialised tools and components

(01:48:35) Advice for a young scientist keen to start a career in radio astronomy today

(01:51:05) Regrets, limitations and the team at TIFR

(01:53:54) Retirement and interest in reading and history

(01:58:13) Winding up the session

Idrees Khan served as a mahout in Dudhwa National Park from 1972 to 2024. In this interview, he shares his life experiences beginning from his early childhood and moving to Dudhwa with maternal grandparents. He shares the period of his life when he trained to be a chara-cutter and mahout with his grandfather. He recalls several memorable events from his career, including tracking and tranquilising tigers, even recollecting incidents of close encounters with them.

He regards his interactions with Billy Arjan Singh and officers AN Singh and Ashok Singh as some of the most cherished memories of his career. He speaks in detail about training of a mahout and also, how an elephant is trained. He shares his knowledge of elephant behaviour, their preference for food, first aid and healthcare. As he shares this knowledge, he explains how he has inherited it from generations of mahouts in his family.

He also discusses methods of training an elephant and anecdotes of other mahouts reciting prayers to the elephant. The discussion expands into the differences in the knowledge bases of traditional mahouts and mahouts being appointed at present, and the consequences for both the care of the elephants and the safety of people. He also shares the first aid and medicinal treatment for common ailments of elephants he learnt from his grandfather and uncle. He then shares, along with Anees Khan, commands used to instruct and communicate with the service elephant.

Idrees Khan describes the Dudhwa campus as it was when he first arrived there and shares his memories of Dudhwa over the years.

File 1

(00:00:00) Early life of the speaker and training to be a Mahout, the first instance of locating a man-eater tiger to be brought down.

(00:21:05) Detailed description of the training a mahout undergoes, teachings received by his grandfather, speaking of other mahouts in his family and recounting experiences of facing tigers.

(00:35:37) Understanding traits and temperament of an elephant, the reason for choosing only female elephants in the service, recollecting unfortunate accidents with male elephants, naming of service elephants, and the training and commands to communicate with the service elephant.

(00:59:08) The use of Ankush, a tool for training elephants and discussion on the experience, expertise and methods of a well-trained, efficient mahout. [01:04:52 - 01:05:10 - Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in]

(01:08:44) Description of hunting in the earlier periods.

File 2

(00:00:00) Memories from the 1960s when hunting with a permit was common practice, and discussion on singing and reciting prayers as a method of training.

(00:09:32) Sources of annoyance for service elephants, differences in the training and traditional knowledge between older mahouts and the newly-appointed mahouts, and traditional knowledge of medicinal treatments for common ailments suffered by an elephant.

(00:21:31) Commands for instructing a service elephant, and another incident of tracking a tigress with service elephants by Anees Khan.

File 3

(00:00:00) Describing the campus of Dudhwa in the 1960s, reminiscing interactions with officers in the past, and the celebration of Park day at Dudhwa.

Idrees Khan speaks of how Dudhwa was when he arrived there. He describes the landscape when it was not yet declared a National Park. He also shares how the place developed with infrastructure over time and his observation on the trends in population sizes of deer. He also shares legends and tales of spirits and djinns in the jungle, reiterating that the jungle is much older than people at present and acknowledging that the forest is inhabited by many creatures from olden times. He shares about his friendly relationship with range officer, SD Singh, who was killed by a tiger.

He also speaks of his limited interactions with older people from the British period. He also shares the trend he has observed in the populations of animals, specifically deer.

Idrees Khan shares about graves in and around the ranges in Dudhwa. He speaks about his most memorable moments from his career. He remembers officer AN Singh, who was very skilled in tracking and hunting man-eater tigers, and shares how they developed an amicable relationship and worked together to tranquilise or kill 13-14 man-eater tigers.

He answers questions about old buildings in Dudhwa, and speaks of how arrangements would be made for senior officers when they visited for a few days. He shares about changes in the working of the Forest Department over time.

He remembers the officers he worked with, who valued his service and appreciated him. Remembering AN Singh and Billy Arjan Singh, he recalls their contribution to Dudhwa. He shares some anecdotes showing their treatment of their employees and their influence in the area.

File 1

(00:00:00) Description of Dudhwa National Park in the 1960s and '70s.

(00:04:06) Tales of spirits and djinns in the jungle.

(00:11:47) The sound of prayers from the graves on the way towards Sothiyana, a dried pond in which was used by two generations before Raja Patiyan to bathe, and the story of how the rest house of Kiratpur was not possible to construct again.

(00:21:09) The relationship between the speaker and Range officer SD Singh.

File 2

(00:00:00) The relationship between the speaker and Range officer SD Singh, and the unfortunate demise of SD Singh and driver Parmeshwar at the attack of a man-eater tiger.

File 3

(00:00:00) Re-narration of the tale of Kiratpur rest house, the speaker's understanding of the home of spirits in the jungle and their kind nature. The story behind Shalukapu rest house and dacoits reportedly using the bungalow as a temporary place to stay.

(00:07:58) On search of treasure in the jungle, the speaker shares why he refrains from such a pursuit and his preference for honest work and a simple life, his principles of honest work. Sharing about his limited interactions with the older people from the British period.

(00:22:45) A discussion on the trend in animal populations in Dudhwa.

File 4

(00:00:00) Sharing the stories related to many graves in Dudhwa, speaking of signs of an older civilisation in Dudhwa.

(00:09:15) Reminiscing about the most memorable moments of his career, speaking of Research officer AN Singh and their friendly relationship. Describing how man-eater tigers were identified using pugmarks.

(00:29:41) Describing a tranquilising operation in Pilibhit, remembering it as one of scariest tranquilisations. Speaking of a tiger skin trophy placed in the museum in Dudhwa.

(00:39:71) Discussion on old buildings in Dudhwa, arrangements for senior officers by Range officers, differences in the working of the Forest Department.

(00:58:29) Changes in the method of caring for elephants by mahouts over time. Describing the routine of a mahout in caring for an elephant, and obtaining the fodder for the elephant and feeding her.

(01:06:34) Sharing the happiest moments of his career, and remembering officers who valued his service and strengthened his morale.

[01:08:33 - 01:08:36 – Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in]

[01:10:57 to 01:16:41 – Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in]

(01:17:05) Shifting elephants to Shalukpu after the arrival of rhinos, changes in the recruitment of elephants since the past, and the retirement age of a service elephant.

(01:23:55) The speaker's fond memories of Billy Arjan Singh.

(01:41:47) His preferred paan combination, his grandfather's dislike for paan and remembering his time with his grandparents.

Naseem Khan was a driver in Dudhwa National Park from 1976 to 2013. In this interview, he shares about his career spanning four decades, beginning from his early childhood, growing up in Mala forest of Pilibhit and being recruited in Dudhwa after completing his Intermediate college. He recollects the most memorable moments and close encounters with large carnivores. His account includes descriptions of the Dudhwa landscape and its ranges, recollections of colleagues and conservationists, and reflections on issues such as poaching, trafficking, and human–wildlife conflict. He also discusses his encounters with dacoits, his interactions with foreign tourists and his progression to becoming a bird guide.

He also speaks of rhino translocation into the park from Assam and Nepal and his re-discovery of the Bengal florican and Hispid hare in Dudhwa. He comments on ecological changes in Dudhwa, including the decline of animal populations and grassland conditions, and mentions management measures that proved effective. He shares about the history of forest infrastructure, and the shift of former hunters toward conservation. Concluding with reflections on his 37-year career, he recalls significant experiences, acknowledges contributions of officers involved in protecting the park, and offers observations and recommendations for the future of conservation in the region. He remembers his early days as a driver in Dudhwa and reminisces more instances of close encounters with tigers and elephants. He shares his tested survival techniques in such cases. He also speaks of the awards he received for his efforts towards conservation and recalls his interactions with RL Singh. Closing the interview, he shares his opinion on the rights of tribal people in the forests and advocates for matching new IFS trainees' roles to their observed interests.

File 1

(00:00:36) Background of the speaker, his early life, memories from his childhood spent in Maala forest in Pilibhit division, his love for wildlife and forests, moving to Dudhwa and his work in the 1970s.

(00:14:04) Management of forests in the 70s and 80s, his career as a jeep driver for tourists, reminiscing about an encounter with a tiger during the tiger census of 1996, and receiving a Bravery Award for the same in Delhi.

(00:23:44) Description of Dudhwa landscape, and its ranges. The memories of Billy Arjan Singh, and Ram Lakhan Singh. Problems of poaching and trafficking in the past, and increasing number of man-eating tigers in the late 1970s, recounting the incident of a tiger killing Range Officer SD Singh in 1984.

(00:46:36) The period of dacoit presence and activity in Dudhwa National Park, and his personal experience with dacoits. Explaining the post of a Wildlife Guard in the past and its history during the period of permitted hunting. On learning birdwatching from the tourists and becoming a bird guide.

(00:55:51) Bringing female rhinos from Assam in 1984 and later from Nepal in 1985, and an electrified rehabilitation area for rhinoceros in Belrayan Range. Reminiscing about his re-discovery of Bengal florican and Hispid hare in the 1980s. Discussion on the declining trend of animal populations and grassland quality since the 1990s. His suggestion for grassland management in a meeting that proved successful.

(01:10:10) His experience with Ravi Sankaran, and description of his work with the Bengal floricans in Dudhwa. Sharing about the search for Hispid hare by sampling for its droppings in around 1981, and the first sighting of Hispid hare in 1997-98. Discussion on other rare species in the landscape. Speaking of his relationship with Billy Arjan Singh.

(01:20:26) A second incident of being charged by a tigress, and recounting an incident of countering elephant attack. Migration of elephants into Dudhwa from Nepal. Forest guest houses from the British period, their maintenance, and occupation of some by dacoits.

(01:30:57) Discussion on how the royalty who were hunters became the protectors of wildlife. Description of Gori Shah fort, the annual carnival held near the fort since the British period, ancient coins found in Shalukapu, graves in Dudhwa, untimely demise of HDO Singh, and swamp deer populations and distribution.

(01:42:21) Most memorable moments from his 37-year long career, injuries suffered by a bear attack on a birding trip. His memories of escorting dignitaries on a tour of Dudhwa. Officers who contributed highly to the conservation of the Park, and his suggestions for future efforts for conservation.

File 2

(00:00:00) Sharing how hardworking people are in Corbett National Park in Uttarakhand. Speaking of his first salary, and details of his work as a driver, making multiple trips for various purposes in the forest.

(00:03:31) Reminiscing about times he was charged by an elephant or was in close quarters with tigers and sharing ways to survive in the forest. Sharing about the awards he has received over the course of his career for his efforts in conservation.

(00:13:59) Remembering his last meeting with RL Singh, his opinion on the matching of the IFS officers' interests with their responsibilities.

In this interview, Bhamathi reflects on her early life during the 1940s, encompassing the years during World War II and the period following India's independence. She recalls her family's active involvement in the freedom movement and the influence it had on her upbringing, her family's links to Mylapore and connection to T R Venkatarama Sastri. Her early education took place in Vijayawada and Hubli, where she began learning music and recalls several formative experiences from her school years. It was during this time that she first developed an interest in physics, which later shaped her academic path.

She discusses her progression through higher education, including her Bachelor's and Master's degrees in Physics, followed by a PhD in theoretical physics. She also describes her interactions with female colleagues, the restrictions placed by her supervisor on collaboration between male and female students, his attempts at control over women students, and the circumstances surrounding the completion and submission of her doctoral thesis.

(00:00:46) Early life and family of the speaker.

[00:05:30 to 00:09:20 Archivist's note: Transfer of recording room and setting]

(00:11:02) The speaker's memories of the period between early 1940s before World War II and after India's Independence, and her family's involvement in the freedom movement.

(00:17:49) Sharing about her siblings and their present lives.

(00:23:04) The speaker's early education, learning music as a young child, remembering incidents of school life in Vijayawada and Hubli

(00:29:14) Discovering a fascination for physics and sharing decisions around her higher studies.

(00:34:16) Discussing societal expectations for women to get married after their graduation. Sharing her family's expectations regarding marriage and the circumstances that helped her pursue her higher education.

(00:37:15) Remembering her neighbourhood middle school, Children's Garden School and a games club organised for the children.

(00:44:08) Discussing the disconnection of the present generation with the experiences of the freedom struggle.

(00:47:26) Recalling her experience of her graduation and post-graduation in physics, and her PhD in theoretical physics.

(00:52:55) Describing her supervisor, and remembering her relationship with her female colleagues.

(01:01:43) Discussing the restriction on collaboration between male and female students in her group

(01:08:25) Comments on her PhD supervisor's mentorship style.

(01:14:59) Narrating the stories associated with Bhabha and her supervisor, and describing his reputation among peers with regard to expertise in particle physics.

(01:20:28) Working alongside other women in her PhD cohort, and her experience as the only woman in her department after her appointment to Madras University.

(01:27:03) Restricted access to invited scholars for women students

(01:33:00) Her supervisor's refusal to sign her thesis and the events leading up to her thesis submission.

In this session, Bhamathi describes her experiences during her PhD years, beginning with her association with the University of Madras and her early dissonance with the Institute of Mathematical Sciences (MatScience), after falling out with her supervisor. She recalls the challenges of accessing scientific literature in the 1950s and 1960s, the process of completing and submitting her doctoral thesis, and her subsequent postdoctoral research in Colorado. Upon returning to India, she joined the Department of Physics at the University of Madras as a CSIR Pool Officer, later becoming a professor in the same department.

Reflecting on her professional life, she discusses her experiences as the only woman in the Department of Physics and the dynamics between MatScience and the University of Madras. She recounts her interactions with several physicists, including ECG Sudarshan, and shares about her time at the University of Oxford. Speaking about the 1980s, she describes her role as Acting Head of the Department of Physics in Madras, noting changes in collegial relationships and gender dynamics compared to her early years. She also reflects on personal negotiations around career and marriage within her family, and the hierarchy between research institutes and national universities. She shares her experience of being a woman in a male-dominated field, and experiences as an Indian scientist in the US.

(00:00:30) Dissonance with MatScience, difficulty of accessing literature at the University of Madras in the 1950s and 60s, and submitting her thesis independently to the Department.

(00:06:55) Her post doctorate in Colorado and appointment as Pool Officer to the Department of Physics at the University of Madras.

(00:08:31) Supervisor's discontent with Bhamathi's independent thesis submission, forbidding her entry to MatScience, and later reversing his decision

(00:14:15) Her first meeting with ECG Sudarshan and receiving encouragement for her own work in the meeting.

(00:18:15) Experience of working at the University of Madras, career as the only woman in the Physics department, and relations between MatScience and the University.

(00:29:05) The speaker's relations with other academicians of theoretical physics, working with ECG Sudarshan, and her term at Oxford University.

(00:40:02) The period of the 1980s, her role as Acting Head of the department, a difference in the way male colleagues fraternised compared to her early career.

(00:45:36) Negotiations around career and marriage within her family, and reflections on self-dependence throughout her career.

(00:55:57) Discussion on the hierarchy between research institutes and national universities, on the politics of power among senior scientists, and on being a woman in a man's world.

(01:11:58) Wearing sarees in Colorado and thoughts on the movie 'Hidden Figures'.

In this interview, G Bhamathi shares about her first meeting with her late husband, ECG Sudarshan, recalls her early professional interactions and how their relationship built over time. She speaks of more senior years of her Professorship as she recollects being the head of the Space Science Cell in collaboration with Russia, and reveals hurdles of local politics she had to face. She shares her experiences of teaching and research across several countries, and the practical limitations that shaped her academic focus. She discusses the events leading to her early retirement from the University of Madras, and later, her full-time commitment to her husband's health.

She shares about a music group she started in Austin, Texas, where she continues to teach and perform Carnatic music. Speaking of the experience of being "Mrs. Sudarshan", she shares both the privileges and liabilities carried by this identity. She goes on to share about her involvement with the women's commission of Austin and formation of a group called Saheli for the support and rehabilitation of victims of family violence. She concludes the interview by reflecting on the changes in her life post-COVID and the projects and transitions she anticipates in the near future.

(00:00:34) Bhamathi recalls meeting ECG Sudarshan for the first time, organising a conference on Particle Physics.

(00:12:28) Knowing ECG Sudarshan more personally, her growing interest in philosophy, her professional interactions with ECG Sudarshan over the years and how their relationship built over time.

(00:25:57) The speaker's role as head of the Space Science Cell working in collaboration with Russia, an incident highlighting problems of local politics, travels to the International Centre for Theoretical Physics (ICTP) in Italy, to Chile and Texas.

(00:33:42) Her marriage to ECG Sudarshan, early retirement from the University of Madras.

(00:41:12) Discussion on the experience of teaching in Chile, Irvine, and Texas, giving up teaching and focusing on research.

(00:48:39) Working with the women's commission in Austin, founding a group called 'Saheli', and travelling along ECG Sudarshan in his deteriorating health.

(00:49:58) Discussing her publications, the logistics limiting feasible research topics throughout her career, and on committing to full-time caregiving for ECG Sudarshan.

(01:01:02) Learning Carnatic music from a young age and graduating to teaching music in Austin, Texas.

(01:12:55) Sharing her experience of being "Mrs. Sudarshan", its associated privileges and liabilities.

(01:27:10) Speaking of her continued friendships with other female physicists.

(01:32:09) The speaker's life and routine at the time of interview.

(01:33:53) Sharing about her involvement in support for victims of family violence, collaboration with a women's shelter in Austin and the formation of a collective called 'Saheli'.

(01:52:57) Her retirement from physics, the changes in her life after COVID, and the projects and transitions she anticipates in the near future.